Posts by Bill Pendleton

    The kid that does 405 is a high school junior. We have had 10 kids do 400 - 420 in the past 38 years but 375 is still a big time bench. Unfortunately that kid throws 43 because he is slow. If you saw him clean 285 with horrible technique you'd know why. We do the Neider press ( standing push press ) and the other throwing related work on the page below before school.
    Bondarchuk-SDE-Work


    I did a little powerlifting and have a couple certifications in olympic lifting so we spend a lot of time on technique. Most have good technique but some will always clean/squat/bench like no one worked with them. I post videos every max week at the end of the cycle. We had a 302, 286, and a couple 250 cleans I posted yesterday. If you're on FB search for my name and you'll see them. My senior 60' thrower benches 350, cleans 355, snatches 250, and full squats 522.

    Thanks. I will use the formula. My questions are:
    1. Do you time one rep or 5?
    2. Do I time from the bar at the top down to the chest and back up or just from the chest up? It seems like it should be just chest up but I'd like to hear what others think.

    Update Last week 3 of my throwers were on a Realization phase week of Close Grip Snatch, Hang Clean to immediate jerk, squat and double jumps and speed bench we discussed. Two of the 3 had season prs in the shot last week. Also oddly enough because these guys are also football players today we started in the weight room and got a single rep max in the bench, then went out and threw and then came back in to do the Realization week work. All 3 guys got bench maxes ( 405, 350, and 300 ) after doing a week of 5 sets of 5 speed bench. ( 5 reps under 6 seconds ) Generally about 2 sets at 50 %, 2 at 55% and one at 60%.

    To each his own. The more I can understand the concepts, the better I can utilize it on my level using a stop watch. No one is asking you to do it. We've been doing for the last weeks of the cycle and we'll see how it works in a few weeks.

    As I try and digest @ShaunP's most valuable commentary, I have a question for the meantime. I know I have seen throwers training with a pad on the chest. I assumed this was to get a very dynamic bounce with great weight. Anyone who has done this, please tell us about it.


    Shaun, my background was power lifting and Olympic lifting and I have cycled throwers though progressive resistance down to a peak as if they were attempting single rep lifting maxes. In general it worked pretty well. I’ve had several peak at the optimum time ( Mark Parlin threw a lifetime shot pr at the high school national championship ( Keebler ) and my son threw a lifetime discus pr at the state championships, but I know that a lot of variables are involved and that the weight training we were doing wasn’t necessarily a case of cause/effect. I want to understand your post, so if you don’t mind, please answer my questions so I can tell if I am on the right track. Here is your post with my questions.


    Coach P, Rutger is correct in the fact that arm length and therefore distance travelled plays an important role in Power output. Remember Power is Work (Force x Distance) divided by time taken to perform the movement.What I said in my previous post was that training with the highest load with which you can achieve 5 reps in 6 seconds is a good way of training for power, which is not what you did with your athletes, as they were all inside the six seconds comfortably.


    ( So it would be preferable if we found what the highest percentage they could hit 5 reps in 6 seconds with ?)


    Again this is a method of training that applies similar principles to the MuscleLab. What you did with your athletes was take the 50% 1RM value as a training load, which is approximately what an athlete will find their peak power output in the Bench Press, although this could vary from 40-60% depending on their particular characteristics, which is why we used the machine to measure to determine the "optimum" load. This is then the best load to train with in order to develop power and to move the Force/Power curve to the right.


    ( So the percentage would vary with the longer armed thrower using a lighter percentage but probably generating equivalent power because he is traveling a greater distance )
    Would you be doing this only during the Realization phase ( last few weeks before
    a meet you wanted to peak at ) or an entire 6 or so week cycle?


    This is also a training methodology, and so you would need to train like this and see what results come after a certain period of training. Typically we would do as many reps as you could while maintaining speed, as when you drop below 90% max power you are no longer developing fast twitch.


    ( Would this 90% be judged by the 6 seconds time limit? )


    I might combine these two methods and train your athletes at this 50% 1RM for a while, but do not set the Reps, but rather look for the speed to drop and quit at that point.


    ( How many sets of this would you suggest ? I assume when their 50% required over 6 seconds their speed has dropped.
    What do you think about this assuming they can do 5 reps at 60% at 6 seconds:
    60% 5 reps at/under 6 seconds x 2
    55% 5 reps at/under 6 seconds x 2
    50% 5 reps at/under 6 seconds x 2
    Or
    55% 5 reps at/under 6 seconds 5 or 6 sets.


    For some this may be 4 reps and other 7 reps. Then I would look at the other "test" methodology after say a 4 week period of this training


    ( What is the other “test methodology ? )

    and then look for the highest load that the athlete could complete 5 reps in 6 seconds, and see if this load moves up significantly as I think it will.Interestingly 1RM also seems to improve significantly with this type of training because you have developed the ability to accelerate a load, so you are able to overcome the dead weight of a 1RM easier.


    ( This makes me wonder if any Olympic lifters have tried training this way but since they aren’t trying to move a static weight faster like a shot but lift a greater weight it might not apply )


    The most important thing however is to see how the throwing distance responds to this type of training.


    ( I know Olympic lifting is inherently more fast twitch oriented and explosive than bench, but squats are also slower so have you trained squat the same way ? )


    Thanks and I appreciate you sharing your expertise.

    So I tested my better throwers today. We took 50% or single rep max and timed 6 reps.


    VIDEO - POWER OUTPUT
    THROWER 1
    6' 1 240 lbs. Senior 18.00 Shot ( 59' 10 ) 340 Bench ( 155 kg )
    5 reps with 170 = 4.60 sec.


    THROWER 2
    6' 2 235 lbs. Freshman 17.15 ( 56' 3 ) 315 Bench ( 145 kg )
    5 reps with 157.5 = 4.78


    THROWER 3
    6' 1 215 lbs. Senior 16.25 ( 53' 4 ) 290 Bench ( 132.5 kg )
    5 reps with 145 = 4.19


    THROWER 4 6' 260 lbs. Sophomore 13.75 ( 45' )290 Bench ( 132.5 kg )
    5 reps with 145 = 3.95


    Observations and Questions:
    - The weakest thrower had the fastest time ( probably greatest power output since their max is
    not that far apart ) so obviously many other factors are involved in their distance.
    - Their arm speed is still slower appearing to me than a throw so should I go to 40% ?
    - I know a lot of elite throwers do a pad bench bouncing the bar off a thick pad. Is this how the
    measurement is usually made?
    - The value I see at this point is in using this number as a base to compare. We are 4 weeks into a six week cycle. We will go into Realization phase soon ( if I'm using the term correctly ). AT
    week six their output should be improved. If not something is wrong and I'll have t figre out
    what.
    I welcome any comments. I want to know more about utilizing this.

    This is an offshoot of the thread "Do you have to bench 200 kg to throw 20 meters? "
    @ShaunPickering made some great points:

    ... In general a useful rule of thumb is the highest load you can move 5 reps in 6 seconds is a pretty good indicator of power, and this holds true for bench and squats. Olympic lifts you are pretty much performing at hight power any way if you are performing them right. I did change more towards hang snatch as my main source of power as this generated highest relative outputs, and then hang cleans.


    The other over-riding principle that came out of this is to always have the intent to move the bar as fast as possible in all lifts and all sets. This way you will develop fast twitch fibres at all stages of the programme. This has been applied with great effect by Vesteinn Hafsteinsson and his athletes over the past 6-8 years, and you can see the examples of this in the lifting films on the Global Throwing website. Kim Christensen performing 215kg x 6 reps fast in Bench is very impressive. Vesteinn does not use the machine, only the principles that he has got from my use of the machine, and this has been the biggest change in his training methods in recent years.I hope this helps with this discussion. It is not about how much you Bench but in how you do it as Speed is King here always. If you want to throw 20m you have to have a release speed approaching 13m/s so this is the most important factor. It is much more important to have people move reasonable loads fast (peak of power curve for Bench Press is around 50% 1RM) than just a big slow maximum bench. As Dr Bondarchuk notes in his book, the correlation between 1RM Bench Press and max distance thrown in Shot Putt is 0.39 so you should not spend a great deal of time worrying about it. Once you have reasonable strength levels you can throw far.
    ShaunP

    Rutger
    I googled those terms and looked on Amazon and ebay and no luck, just supplements etc. I will keep looking. I guess I could use a stop watch but I'm not sure how I would apply it since you could do the bar the fastest of all but you're not pushing anything. There must be a formula. Any suggestions from anyone?