Quote from Viking
I firmly believe that part of being a champion is the ability to adapt to everything possible, and not making excuses.
Apart from malicious attempts to have someone specific or a specific group of athletes at a disadvantage,like in deliberately having a very slow ring for warmups and a very fast one for the meet,deliberately loosing an athlete's luggage at the airport or during transfer or something like not opening the cage door completely for someone that's a left handed hammer thrower (or opening it more) etc,all the rest are very predictable and i'm afraid,quite self-degrading when used as excuses-at least by top level professionals.
Coach Babbitt posted a series of real life concerns of athletes and i respect this,as well as any attempt to make the events better and more athlete ,spectator and viewer friendly-in that order.Indeed ,there are a lot of things to be done in that direction for the best of the events.
But taking this to a whole new level of making things better or more suitable for some and disadvantageous for others is also wrong.Adaptation is actually a part of the game here.Different cities,different weather,different rings ,different shots are the way the sport is.It's impossible for all to agree on something,especially since different techniques require different conditions,not to mention each athlete has his own preferences that also don't stay the same through time.
If i was a coach of a top athlete right now,i'd look deeper into this in case all these bigger or smaller nuances are predisposing the athlete to actually expect to perform worse in case everything's not perfect.Things almost never will be perfect,it's a matter of a couple of meets in a whole career,and the best performances don't always match perfect meet conditions too !
This year,in the Euro indoors the ring was said to be very slippery and Sidorov competed in running shoes as a spinner (!!!) and got his first medal and we're talking about a rookie here.
The last decade we've heard it all...indoors where the ring is standarised to a great degree,whenever someone would beat the US team for the gold,like when Martinez won...the sector was too narrow ( !!!).
Then,rules had to be updated to accomodate stepping on the ring rim at the back,"just because old rules were made for gliders".
Then suddenly,competition circumstances became perfect ever since at about the same time US spinners began throwing 22+ indoors in world championships.
On to outdoors,most times the problem is long distance travel,time zone differential and lately random ring surfaces...i guess the next step would be standarising weather?
And how about javelin and discus throwers in relation to weather ?
The Olympics next year take place in a notoriously rainy city-would a rain be a big surprise and another attempt to sabotage certain athletes or certain techniques ? I don't know...
published at Sep 21st 2011 6:23am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Bogdan Poprawski
Adaptation is all there is. Sport, business, life ...
Thinking of adaptation - how about this: There was a compatition in Warsaw, Poland (Kamila Skolimowska Memorial) in which Armstron, Majewski and Cantwell put: 8kg, 16 lbs, 6kg and 5kg shots. Two attempts each. They added results and here they are:
End: 11-09-20 16:25:00
Start: 11-09-20 15:30:00
1 4 127 Dylan ARMSTRONG 81-01-15 CANADA(CAN) 88.67
2 5 125 Tomasz MAJEWSKI 81-08-30 AZS-AWF Warszawa(POL) 88.64
3 3 126 Christian CANTWELL 80-08-30 UNITED STATES(USA) 87.24
4 2 129 Damian KUSIAK 88-04-14 KS AZS-AWF Biała Podlaska(POL) 74.68
5 1 130 Kamil ZBROSZCZYK 87-01-24 KKL Kielce(POL) 56.56
I II III IV V VI VII VIII
Dylan ARMSTRONG 20.03 19.76 21.23 x 22.82 23.26 23.93 24.15
Tomasz MAJEWSKI 19.30 19.75 20.56 20.86 22.88 23.15 24.48 24.88
Christian CANTWELL 19.83 20.27 19.83 21.42 22.71 x x 22.81
When you look at the time of the competition, you see that it took them less than an hour to complete it.
They put from the some circle : )
Hey, Jacko Gill looks good with his pb in 5 kg here!
published at Sep 21st 2011 7:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Bogdan Poprawski
It was yesterday ... and ... thinking about adaptation:
Marlene Ottey, who turned 51 in May this year, run 100m in 11.84s.
published at Sep 21st 2011 7:42am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Bogdan Poprawski
I got several emails re: that "strange meet".
This is how they did:
Each athlete had 2 attempts with each shot.
The best results of two were the added. In Dylan's case it was:
20.03 (8kg) + 21.23 (16lbs) + 23.26 (6kg) + 24.15 (5kg) = 88.67.
My observation: Majewski is more powerful with ligher implement.
Dylan is more powerful with heaver implement.
This is a nice subject to talk about ...
Lots of studies had been done about, lots more can be done.
published at Sep 21st 2011 9:17am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from nellie
Viking is right. We should be able to adapt to a difference in rings. However, there's a difference between fast and slow rings and one that is slippery due to poor preparation.
The practice rings in the village really weren't finished properly. They weren't just fast. They were lumpy and inconsistent. The warm up rings were laid a little better, however, the surface was not completely flat and it was fast. The speed of the concrete didn't make it slippery. There was a fine layer of dust that covered the rings. After several countries (not just the US) complained they washed the rings out. The clean rings were better.
The competition rings were completely different. I'm not making an excuse here. Usually, at this stage in my training I can throw on any type of ring well. I didn't adapt well to the ring, but for a completely different reason. No excuses for my performance, but by the time I got to the stadium circles I knew it wasn't going to happen.
For the record we do get to tour the stadium. We can get in the rings. There is a difference though between getting into the rings and, actually, practicing in the rings. Again, I've gone through this more than anyone still competing (I think), so this is not an excuse. It's just me offering an elite throwers opinion.
I really don't care for excuses. Viking, I think sometimes you take the "non-American" view point and then there's some real merit behind your words. Other times, I think you take an "anti-American" stand point, and I think this bias is kind of dictating some of your responses lately. I've spoken with many European shot putters who have voiced similar recommendations as to Coach Babbitt's. The reality is that the meet directors go out of their way to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars building two identical tracks. Throwing areas are often an afterthought. I think that's what Babbitt's trying to change by making those recommendations. In the least, if we standardized the throwing surfaces it would refute any excuse the Americans might have, right?
BTW, there's no evidence that throwing in a running shoe adds more "grip." Running shoes usually don't have a plate in the sole of the shoe, so the shoe probably allowed him to feel the ring better or it might have altered his timing out of the back allowing him to exert more downward force. In fact, if I'm not mistaken less surface area generally equals less grip on a dry surface. That's why race car tires are "flats." So a waffle bottom shoe or other design would have less surface in contact with the ring and not provide as much grip.
There's, also, nothing standardized about indoor rings other than the fact they are round and flat. I think many indoor ring designers prefer to make a ring look pretty rather than functional. They're almost always slippery after a few people throw on them because the rubber from the shoes sticks to the surface. I hate most indoor rings and would prefer concrete over wood or other surface everyday.
An idea for innovating the throws: Rather than have six straight throws. Why don't we have a timed competition? i.e. You can take as many throws as you want in one hour. This format might only work in at a throws festival and is probably not possible in a championship setting.
I'd like to clarify something from an earlier post that got posted on Track and Field news blogs. It was my first post about sponsorship and state funding. I rarely complain about how much money I don't make. After all, I throw a steel ball for a living and have been able to do it full time for almost 13 years now. My family doesn't go without food and a roof over their heads. However, after three or four down years in the sport, it's difficult to continue on. Keep in mind I've always made most 70-80% of my income off of prize money. As my performances drop, so does my income. And it's safe to say I've had a nice steady decline in income for almost 4 years now. Also, I haven't always had a sponsor and missed out on a couple of significant pay days because I didn't have one in the year I won WCs or the two years afterwards. My point wasn't to complain about sponsorship or my own income status, but to offer an opinion that other countries fund their athletes a lot better allowing them to sustain a base standard of living without the need to compete except at the national meets or other club meets.
What some read as complaining was more observations about how different systems support their athletes. Specifically, Dylan Armstrong's name was picked up. I've known Dylan since he was in college. Unlike most shot putters in the US, he paid his dues as a hammer thrower. When he switched to the shot put, he was finally able to use all of his massive power and athleticism in a throw. I don't know when he received funding from Athletics Canada, but AC has invested a lot of money (relatively speaking) in him the past few years. He's worked hard to achieve this and it hasn't been a linear path like many others. He had to take a big risk to switch events at a later age. It speaks to his physical talents that he's picked it up so quickly. I still believe he has the potential to throw a lot further and that his current limitation is a technical one. His technique is still not great, but he's made a huge step forward this year. He's working the left side of the ring a lot better through the center of the circle and not slapping the ball quite as much. If he continues to improve his technique, he will throw high 22m and possibly farther. Once you start going beyond 22.50 or so, it's really about everything coming together at the exact right time. All that said, it would have been very difficult for him to continue without the help of AC and some of his buddies in Camloops. It almost goes without saying that if he were from the US he would have slipped through cracks. Of course, he probably would have played football instead and could have bought that customized Lambo he's always talking about.
published at Sep 21st 2011 10:31am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Tony Dziepak
It would be interesting to compare the distance differentials between the athletes, although perhaps Cantwell had to conserve on his second 5K to get a mark after the first foul--you only get two throws, and if you missed one, that's like false-starting.
May I suggest a modification for next year? If you stay with 2x4 weights, Score the top 4 marks with the following restrictions:
At least one 8K,
at least two from the set (8K, #16),
and at least 3 from the set (8K, #16, 6K).
In other words if an athlete has two fouls in the 5K, add his other 6K mark. That should let the athletes relax more.
Another suggestion is to do a 3x3 with just 8K, #16, and 6K. Juniors can do #16, 6K, and 5K. One above weight and one below weight is enough.
published at Sep 21st 2011 11:21am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Bogdan Poprawski
This was actually a meet for hammer throwers, but there were no sponsors at the beginning.
The organizers added some events from Highland Games at the beginning, to make it more interesting. Also added some sprints and 800m to please sponsors.
The format of shot put competition, as far as I know, was agreed upon with those biggest putters beforehand.
It was a rare "fun competition". Although the throwers's show was the best, the real stars, for some obvious reasons, were there: Oscar Pistorius and Marlene Ottey.
Thinking of such format, anybody can do whatever he/she pleases: 9kg-16lbs-5kg, you name it. It is as usual: "Just do it".
From the analitical point o view, one of the readers prepared and sent to me a very nice graph with the results of these three great athletes.
Majewski is perfectly linear, Dylan - less, but not bad, Cantwell - the most flat.
Whether flat or linear is better or worse, tough to say.
Next year we will see : )
published at Sep 21st 2011 12:03pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Kap
What an amazingly cool idea... and kudos to the guys who threw in it! These are some of the less traditional ways we can show off the throws a bit more.
Special javelin comp @ our June 2012 Throws Festival in PA; current 800; "old rules" 800; current 600, "old" rules 600; Vortex Howler football. We're gonna need a landing area over 100m long
published at Sep 21st 2011 12:47pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
First about Warsaw shot competition,i think this is very interesting !
Due to specific characteristics of linear vs rotational technique i would expect the spinners to throw better with the lighter implements and the glider better with the heavier (longer acceleration path) but it seems the strength levels and bodyweight of the spinners outweighed the leverages of Majewski and everything came upside down.
Linear progression is always preferred,you want the CNS to adapt to different implements,not have a one size fits all speed.And for me it shows that there's a surplus of speed that can be put to good use with heavier implements quite quickly (as opposed to building speed which is harder to do).
It could also be due to the place in time this meet took place,as Majewski probably uses no more heavy shots as the season progresses,who knows...interesting !
It would make for some great research material ,but the fact that athletes still train for the season should be reassured first-detraining or cessation of training due to end of season would distort results too much.
It's no surprise that right after the results and meet format came a post requiring a different format to better suit Cantwell !!! Then i get all the heat for being biased...:D
my views are not anti-American.I don't care where the athletes are from.
Am i not sincere about my references on my previous post ? Wasn't it the US athletes that protested for narrow sectors and old rules ?
I did agree with coach Babbitt's view,where these would make the whole event better.
And wouldn't agree on having badly crafted rings whether fast or slow,no matter who they favour.
I wouldn't agree though on a specific agenda being pushed by the country with the strongest IAAF influence to make all rings one way,the way the US athletes like it ! In case there are different views on this,the most influential member is not Russia,Belarus or Germany...
About ring surfaces preferred,there will never be a united decision among throwers ,because everyone likes it differently made.There would only be agreement on the quality of the surface(quality of craftmanship) but not texture.
I sincerely enjoy how you never make excuses for less-than-expected performances and this is how a champion should behave.You have actually come to this forum (without having to) and pinpointed the exact reasons for each performance drop,candidly, and then took actions to take care of the problem-with success !
This is why ,personally,i refuse to say anything negative about Adam Nelson as an athlete lately.I appreciate the way you think,work and behave.I respect this behaviour very much.
And-if you will-with explaining ,you have succeeded on sharing your point of view too up to a certain extent.
There's nothing extraordinary about having a bad meet,or a series of bad meets and bad performances,or mistiming peaks or having priorities outside of strictly winning big championship meets.
What's unexpected at the very top level is making excuses-it's not a matter of right or wrong (i cannot be the judge of that) but a matter of whether i like and respect a way of action or not,and it's personal-i'm not trying to create a trend,i just express myself.
About the shoes in relation to rings topic,in dry conditions more surface equalls more friction.Wet conditions change everything.
In sports cars,wet conditions call for less surface in contact with the road ,not only because less surface equalls more pressure but because the rest of the surface is used for the tire to remove the water from in between the surface of the tyre and road.
So,it's not about using a slimmer slick tyre for more pressure for wet,but using an equally wide tyre that has one part of the surface for contact and the rest for removing water.
In the shot,all shoes have a very smooth surface and the friction is based on the hardness of the sole and contact surface.
I think it would be wise to know how to use 2-3 different types of shoes in different ring surfaces ,just like race car drivers know how to use different types of tyres under different circumstances-this would give a definite competitive advantage.
As for Sidorov,he said himself he used those shoes for more friction,at least on that ring that day they worked better than his throwing shoes.Good for him !
published at Sep 21st 2011 1:10pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Freddie
Thank you for posting that last one. There are many different types of people on here and we all like to speculate that we all know how it is or how to do everyone else's job better. Annoying as this is, it is a common effect of any push for knowledge and only in testing the old can we bring about the new. Your expertise and point of view are a nice change of pace from some of the usual know-it-alls(myself included) that post regularly.
ps.....the idea about having an hour to throw your best within that time frame regardless of number of throws is genius!
published at Sep 21st 2011 2:02pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Coach Rodney
I wrote a post several days ago that didn't go. I talked about the surface of the Ring. Someone said, you can't please all throwers on the ring surface. And, a glider might want a different surface then a rotary thrower.
My SP Ring last year became very fast. One when it was poured in 2002, it had a fast surface on it. So in 8 years with water and sun beating down on it, plus the movement of throwers, it became really fast, My throwers didn't mind it, for one they were on it every day. Other schools didn't. They blamed the problems their throwers were having with the ring being fast. Of course, when you watched them, they were not balanced or had poor technique. They were to fast and out of position. Since we were having our championship meets at our place I acid washed the ring and calmed it down some. Just a hair slower today, but still a nice place to throw.
In the post I wrote several days ago, it was for Jeremy/Slug. What he was talking about his ring, I'd say he would need to replace the ring. Not much else he can do.
And for London, Hopefully the ground crew people will have a plan to make the facility the best it can be. Rings and throwing area should be simular. If they aren't, then the person in charge of grounds doesn't have a plan of attack. No knowledge of what we are talking about.
published at Sep 21st 2011 3:00pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Kap
Our 1st Dana Zatopkova (1952 Oly champ; 1958 WR setter born in Sept.) Sale starts today! All Polanik Class I competition javelins (600, 700 & 800gm) are 20% off regular prices. Limited to stock on hand, so call, fax or email us w/ the sale code "Dana" for your 20% discount. Sale ends Oct. 30 or when stock runs out.
"Back to School" sales are so old fashioned
published at Sep 21st 2011 3:12pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from CoachMartin
I have a question about crosscut. I have been watching the Reebok Crossfit games and am thoroughly digging it! Has any retired throwers tried this? I am turning 30 this year and need to do something to get my butt in shape. Crossfit looks fun and challenging.
published at Sep 21st 2011 8:07pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Don Babbitt
I wanted to make a few comments about the Warsaw meet, which I thought was very interesting. About the spinners, Armstrong and Cantwell, throwing the light shots less that Majewski,I tend to not think it is a glider vs spinner thing. I think both Cantwell (who can throw the 8kg about 70 feet) and Armstrong (who I think can throw the 8kg the same as Cantwell) train with the heavy implements and throw them well. I look at them as "pushing" spinners whereas people like Hoffa, Nelson, and Whiting are slingers. Slingers also have to be more "on" with their technique to get big results in my opinion as well. I can tell you that Hoffa and Nelson can throw the light stuff very well, and aren't nearly as good with the heavy shots. I think this is all due to the way they train, which again shows how they approach the event from a technical and rhythmic standpoint.
Having said all this, in terms of spinners, I think the "peak" you see from them is based more on rhythm, just like a golfer peaks (meaning they get in a grove and play well in a series of tournaments). This is for the "slingers", of which I would also put Jacko Gill in that category as well. It is not as much a case of physically peaking. So, when you see a spinner throwing well going into a major, you will usually see them do well. Fortes was a great example of this in Daegu. For example, if you look back in 2008, no Americans were really throwing that well going in Beijing, they were at their best back in June of 2008.
I also wanted to clarify one thing about my proposal about standardizing the rings. I was not intending at all to give any one group an advantage. If we were to go to a standardized ring I would think it would be a very "middle of the road" type of solution with a ring that was not too fast or too slow. This would probably be the fairest type of ring surface. My impetus for this proposal was not so much for the rotational shot putter at all but I was really thinking of the hammer throw more than anything. I look at that ring in Prague where so many different guys have thrown far, and think if you took a survey of all the top throwers they would say they love that ring. Prague seems to have good results in the hammer every year they have it, and why can't we have a "good" surface like that at a major championship every time. There is always a "good" running surface (meaning a fast Mondo surface, not the slow stuff you put down for a training track) at the majors, why can't we have the same attention to detail for the throwing events. That was all I was asking.
published at Sep 21st 2011 10:16pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/