These are the posts from "The Ring" archive on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/ from day Aug 25th 2010
"The Ring" archive entries from Aug 25th 2010
Quote from hopefullthrower
Did he really get within 1cm of the record, what meet and where? What were the conditions and who was officiating, Belarus is the last stalinist state in the world, the ahem current president and their KGB (they kept the name) may have used the old soviet practice of disinformation.
published at Aug 25th 2010 1:41am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
Not a set up.I just wanted to know what the general feeling was as to why the records are so old.
I think all the ideas presented have to go into the equation. The puzzling thing is that we have athletes that abigger and stringer now and the records still stand.
published at Aug 25th 2010 2:18am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
Not an expert but my understanding is drugs help the CNS, which is why the 500lb benchers of the 80's could stand throw 22m, while todays athlete cannot. Also, the drugs help recovery so guys could have longer/more frequent practices and consequently impeccable Barnes/Timmerman technique
published at Aug 25th 2010 2:38am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from jucs
published at Aug 25th 2010 3:26am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
I have to believe that we are truly fooling ourselves if we think the sequel to designer drugs isn't being used or developed. Is gas chromatography and mass spec still the testing tools?
It is so hard to believe that thrwers are significantly stronger tahn their drug using 80's throwers, yet stll clean. I don't get it either.
published at Aug 25th 2010 4:36am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from wrucky
In the shot put there was Udo and Ulf, I don't think anyone today is as strong as them from my knowlege. Same as discus with Bruch, Bugar, Ubartas, (I don't think Schult was that strong from what I've heard) and in the hammer, aside from yuri and litnov the majority of those finalists were reeeally strong. Not sure about jav.
published at Aug 25th 2010 5:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
1)The records now are higher.
If we had the record of 1983 in the shot,instead of Beyer braking Baryshnikov's 22m,it would be Nelson,Hoffa,Cantwell,Mikhnevich.
Now they have to surpass Barnes who threw 23.12 and not 22m.
2)Throwing training got too complicated.I can't help but laugh when i see a 22m thrower training by walking over and under hurdles or doing silly abdominal exercises on stability balls thinking that that's what's missing in order to go to 22.5m...
Train the throw,the positions and the transitions.Strengthen the muscles you use during throwing and learn to use this strength while throwing.Throw far.End of story.
3)No big coincidence of great talents.Majewski and Cantwell could change my mind if it goes on for more years and they go on throwing more and more ,but from 1980 to 1990 there were some great throwers at the same time that by challenging each other ,brought the event to a whole new level.Timmermann,Beyer,Gunthoer,Andrei,Barnes,Brenner,Machura,Smirnov...today this bunch would have gone 24m.
I really disagree today's throwers are any cleaner than those of yesterday.Today there are far more new,undetectable drugs and far more kinds besides steroids.
Today's throwers still lose their hair and get bigger heads and fingers and many buy bigger size shoes every year (and no-they're not 13 years old).
All other things being equal,just imagine how far Barnes would have thrown if he had access to undetectable substances and would never have been caught.He had 3-4 meets at 22.75+ within a couple of months...
Today's athletes that base their training on weights and stands still have great stands (Mikhnevich 21.30 during warmups in a meet ) and move super weights.
published at Aug 25th 2010 5:53am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from MuRdOcK
Could not be met, or even challenged without a staple diet of...
let's not be a creep about this, and be human.
Throwers are human beings who do enjoy.
published at Aug 25th 2010 6:29am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from UK_thrower
Guys, my opinion for what its worth.
Chemicals, definately play a part. Although I presume chemicals are still around they are no where near as wide spread as the government back programme of the GDR. I also understand a lot of athletes are going for HGH, and test rub which has an 8 hour half life. Neither are very good at strength building.
Also the anabolics do help you recover from injuries much more quickley.
I agree with the person that stated that throwers years ago tried for WR's rather than medals.
Back in the 1980's the political world was much different and the USA, USSR & DGR had much higher proportions of their GDP into athletics. The idea being to beat the enemy at all costs.
My last point applies mainly to USA based athletes where talentedf track and field athletes are being poached by other more lucrative sports such as basketball, american football.
published at Aug 25th 2010 9:22am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hammerboy
I don't think that story is serious..!!
published at Aug 25th 2010 10:58am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from bigb
If the right athletes would be coached by w8coach then I think we would definitely see those records surpassed.
published at Aug 25th 2010 2:01pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Kap
the story- linked to Track & Field News website!-of the British athlete who was fined for killing a competitor with a javelin.
If the website is titled "The Spoof" how can you take things seriously?
published at Aug 25th 2010 2:07pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
I had heard that Udo was a 700 bp guy but that was refuted by himself to somewhere in the 550 -600 range. Most of the yester-year throwers where in the 500-600 range in bp and so are today's throwers. Same with the discus and in fact today's are a bit stronger.
I agree with Viking completely on the designer drugs. This has been the way of survival sincedrugs hit the sport. The drug makers are always two steps ahead of the doping control. It's a sad fact that hasn't seemed to change a bit except in the tough talk language of inforcement. If their intent is to truly to stop drugs in the sport, then absolute random testing would be the first step. If Tuesday is the day that envopaks are sent out and they are taking drugs that clear the system in just hours, atheltes could be dirty as they wanted to be and still have the 48 hr window to let the drugs clear the system. Not to mention the designer drugs that son't even show up as a known substance.If gas chromatography and mass spc are still the testing mechanisms then it is still a joke.
Mass pec identifies a foreign substance, gas chrom identifies a KNOWN substance. If the substance is not known, they can't do shit about it. I can't say this is where we are today and wish someone that is closer to the facts to speak up on the subject.
I'm reminded of the David Letterman and Tiger Woods. Both caught in sex scandles.
Letterman revealed and appologized for his actions, on TV the very next night and you don't even hear his name mentioned anymore.
Tiger on the other hand has continually coverd up his entire scandle, is paying his now ex-wife hundreds of millions of dollars for her silence, and can't get a moment of silence about the ordeal.
I'm not a fan of the drugs. It is an ugly reminder that we , as a society are more concerned with the victory and not the process. What it looks like to others than ourselves. Fairplay needs a rebirth in all sports.
All my opinion only.
Wruck , I' glad were are talking agin. Much better than arguing, don't you think?
published at Aug 25th 2010 2:27pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
Looks like you are trying to start a war , with you as a coach, without ammunition!
published at Aug 25th 2010 2:30pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from GOKats
I seem to remember Ulf Timmerman commenting on the ring when he was still posting, that the strength levels of Sarul, Timmerman and Beyer were not dependent on what the number was but how they got to the result. I do not have the exact quote but he said that how they got to the result had to do with the longevity of their success and/or was based on their strengths/weaknesses (body differences). I guess that todays athletes might seem different, but if we look at how they get to the results compared to some from the past, maybe we would see some similarities. Maybe someone who has knowledge of how todays elite could shed some light on this.
published at Aug 25th 2010 3:33pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from GOKats
published at Aug 25th 2010 3:34pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
Fair enough on the avoidance of war, that's my wish too.
I think what others suggested and I originally suggested is that there are certain aspects of the throw that have to happpen for every thrower (balance, rt foot pivoting, lt arm blocking, etc). When we take a perfected model of the movement and not the perfect body model of a thrower , and try to maximize each respective aspect., there are going to be similarities. I don't subscribe to the every thrower is different theory when it changes the tech responsibilities of perfected tech. That's an excuse.
I've coached a multitude of throwers over the years and each has had specific tech issues to contend with. Although I have treated each as individuals the basic pfinicles still apply to al. It is just my job to get them to maximize those principles. If you want to argue that I cant see the point.
published at Aug 25th 2010 3:35pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from throwfarusa
Threw 19m as "unattached" his first year at BSU then dropped 19.88m before hanging it up the next year.
I'm sure there are numerious accounts of "potential" greats that slip through the cracks!
published at Aug 25th 2010 4:16pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Smith
All-right i have to say something here. I Personally witnessed the strength levels of the athletes of today and the athletes of the 1980's when the drugs were at there top levels.
They are 2 different Worlds. At the training track in 1988 they had a weight room. I sat in there for hours. Seen Women bench 180kx3 on the bench, spotted an American women 45 inclining 335lbsx3 in chiba, Seen Petra Felke DDR snatch 110kx2 (she was maybe 140lbs), Seen women snatch 130k, clean 160k, Seen Huang from china clean 140k and jerked it for a set of 5 overhead with a smile on her face. Seen Women doing jump squats with 180-200k, Watched 3 guys get in a pissing match and all push jerked 250k. Watched Men make 170k snatches, very quick 250k bench presses, ect. Have not seen this since.
While watching the throwing, the DDR girls in the discus all broke the world record in training. Watched them make 67 meter standing throws with the 1k. Watch 2 them make 55m throws with the 2k. I seen Soviet and a DDR women putter make 70+ standing throws. Soviets had a military ship off the coast and did not bring athletes in until the last minute. Didn't get to see much of them. They let them off when they cleared there own testing.
I seen Timmerman in 1987 at Purdue University before the World Indoor. Watched him bounce pad bench 250k quickly for 2. Watched 2 DDR girls throw the 4k 21m from a stand. Watched Timmerman throw 21m + from a stand in training.
Connie traveling on the European Circuit from 1987-2000 has seen many more instances of crazy strength and throwing. By 1995 she was no longer embarrassed to lift in the same room with the Europeans. I could write endless examples.
Anyone that thinks the World Records are holding for all these years and think they were technically superior just hasn't seen it up close.
This is where drugs kill history.Many Europeans believe that the USA putters are using non detectable drugs.I Personally know 2 of these putters very well.I know they did it clean. Many will not believe it and that's fine.
Many' many throwers took huge drops during the 1990's . WR Holder women's disc fell to 175 feet and made to retire. Hellman 88 Oly champ didn't get through 92 Qualifying and look just normal. Timmerman was a shadow of himself. Many excuses of injuries ect.
Sorry, overall strength levels across the board were 30-35% greater on the women's side and 20-25% on the men's side. Not the mention the CNS advantage the drugs created.
I don't know why we debate this its common knowledge among many coaches.
published at Aug 25th 2010 4:37pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
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