"The Ring" archive entries from May 11th 2010

Quote from Norm Balke

I agree, the danger of concentrating too much on the right is that the thrower stays on the left too long, and they back in to the ring.

nb

published at May 11th 2010 3:50pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Mark G.

We try to use the action/feel of the right leg sweep to cue the left leg action.

If the right leg/hip movement is dynamic (almost throwing the right leg and hip) as it is in my approach to the back of the circle, the action of the right aggressively sweeping to the middle will unweight the left leg as the right passes.

I have used this sensation of unweighting the left as the cue to get off of the left. A loose, relaxed, and dynamic left leg will travel quickly to the front while the athlete is in their non-support phase. It will slingshot to the front.

I hope that this clarifies things a little better. If not, I will get another cup of coffee and try to write a better description of my approach.

Cheers,
MG

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published at May 11th 2010 4:22pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from 70footer

great insights Andy , I really love what you say about sprinting across the circle , you defientely cleared that up for everyone ...can you expand on your thoughts about linear drive with pivots VS. rotating thru the circle....throwing has always been more of a linear approach for me but was always taught that was a weakness, that the spin is about rotational force.

published at May 11th 2010 4:24pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Mark G.

Basically, yes, both legs play their role(s) in the back of the ring. The side that you or your coach prefer to cue or emphasize is your preference but each side must work in order to set up a solid PP at the front (with good foot position, knee bend, torque, and the potential for a big stretch reflex and lift through the finish/delvery).

Again, I hope that this clarifies my previous posts. Maybe I should get another cup of coffee?

MG

published at May 11th 2010 4:28pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I confused with the description. If when you ariginally said that there is a definite left leg push off but the latest description is that there is an unweighting of th left and its action is tied to the rt leg's action, at what point is there a left leg extension that facilitates a left leg drive? I hope you can see that I am one that is closer to the advocation of the latter post. Find a picture of Oldfield extending his lt leg out of the back and post it please.

published at May 11th 2010 4:29pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Norm Balke

I know exactly what you mean. I like to say "let the right pull you out of the back" That sounds like a passive left foot, but that doesn't usually happen.

nb

published at May 11th 2010 4:32pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

It is my opinion that the pushing or extending off of the lt leg is misconceived. This would comprimise the balance position out of the back and delay the lt leg to the front of the ring. The lowering of the the lt hip towards the middle of the ring creates the linear force of movement acroos the ring if the UB remains close to vertical. The wide rt leg counterbalances this lowering of the COG at the back and then enhaces the gravitational pull of the linear forces across the ring but its main function is to turn the body to the middle. If the last thing that leaves the ground is the lt foot and it pushes in a straight line it functionally diminishes the rotational effects of the rt leg leaving the turning responsibilities of turning the body to the UB. As the the body senses the lack of rotational forces due to the linear push of the left leg the shoulders turn and the extended left leg is left behind and the pull is diminished at the toeboard.

published at May 11th 2010 4:37pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Just throwing out a couple thoughts on an intersting topic

To drive the right leg as aggressively as Bloom in 2000 or Godina in 95, you need to be very strong to convert that horizontal energy into vertical energy and not foul.

I found as a thrower that if I drove too hard out of the back with my right, my right foot/knee got too far in front of me which made it difficult to keep my weight back in the front. On my better throws (62ish) I pushed very hard off the left and kept the right under me.

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published at May 11th 2010 4:44pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from jayess

As usual I don't understand some of what you said, but two things you said I think are really important.

1)"Pushing or extending off of the lt leg would...delay the lt leg to the front of the ring." I couldn't agree more. Nothing slows rotation in the middle like dragging a leg behind you.

2) "The wide rt leg's...main function is to turn the body to the middle." Again, so true. Someone posted earlier that you can't apply force while airborne, but they are forgetting that you can/should convert the energy stored in the sweeping leg to the entire system while airborne.

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published at May 11th 2010 4:54pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I believe it is important to first identify functional, summative objectives( where do we want the thing to go and we'd better make sure our bodies are headed in the same direction.) Then , design movements in isolation that have one or two moving objectives that suprt the intended outcomes.

published at May 11th 2010 5:10pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Norm Balke

I have yet to see any thrower throw like Kenton Kemeny. I think Mr. K, that on the throw that you described, your functioning of the right was already grooved in so well, that you didn't really need to think too much about it. It's sort of like when you are playing basketball and you shoot a jumper, you don't need to think about where is my elbow, am I getting proper ball rotation, etc.

nb

published at May 11th 2010 5:25pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Bloom

There is no way to answer every question and there are obvious differences thrower to thrower, but here are my thoughts about technique.

I break the throw up into 5 phases.

Phase 1-1st double support in the back of the circle. I believe the weight should be over the left leg as it leads to a more consistent weight distribution over the left side. This is a more repeatable technique that leads to big throws when they matter. Body position is not important, but I favored a more bent over position because it allowed me to compensate for some bad habits that I struggled to break. The movement in this phase should be minimal and should be comprised of turning the left foot while keeping the right foot on the ground for as long as possible. Barnes called the right foot action out of the back skating and that is probably the best description.

Phase 2- Single support. During this phase the right foot has come off the ground and the left foot is the only thing in contact with the ground. I tried very hard to keep my left armpit over the inside of my left thigh to line my body up for a linear sprint. The movement in this phase should again be minimal and should involve a linear drive with the left leg. I worked very hard to prevent myself from falling into the middle of the ring. w8coach talks about dropping the hip to the middle and I know Mac talks about that, but you don't have space to do that in a 7 foot ring. In the discus you can do things differently. My goal was to keep the diameter of the ring as close to 7feet as possible and dropping the hip is equivalent to cutting the diameter by a foot. I tried to turn on the inside ball of the left foot to keep the ring bigger and allow for a more aggressive drive.

Phase 3-Non-support. This is the most important phase in my opinion and in the opinion of Dr. Bing Yu, who conducted the biomechanical studies on the discus throwers in the 90s. During the non-support phase it is important that the movement be at a minimum because any extra movement will impede the middle of the ring. It is at this time, after the left leg has left the ground, that the right leg sweep can be employed. The movement of the right leg will bring the center of mass into the middle of the circle. One of the keys of this phase is to keep upper body movement to a minimum. It is essential that the head stays neutral and the left armpit remains pointed at the sector for as long as possible. Where most throwers make a mistake is in preturning the upper body in anticipation of the throw. This adds too much rotation to the system and leads to a decrease in torque in the middle of the ring and a premature throw.

Phase 4- Single support. This is the middle of the ring where the right foot makes contact with the ground. The foot needs to be turning prior to contact in order to maintain as much speed as possible. The right leg cannot collapse or allow the hips to drop as that will steal speed away from the system. The right shoulder should be elevated relative to the left and the left arm should be pointed out the back of the ring. In drills, you should be able to stop and hold this position without spinning out of it. If when you stop your body keeps spinning, you have added too much rotation to the system and your ability to drive the ball in a straight line will be diminished. As I have already said, I believe the right foot should come down 8-10 inches past the center of the ring.

Phase 5- 2nd Souble support. This is the time when both feet are on the ground. The left foot should be slightly in the bucket to allow the hips to open. The right foot should continue to turn while the right leg drives into a firm left leg. The goal at this point should be to convert the horizontal momentum created out of the back of the circle into vertical drive.

My technique was completely ground based. I rarely thought about my upper body other than to confirm positions and NOT MOVE. I didn't block hard with my left arm as that had a tendency to drop my left shoulder and the shot is too heavy to throw like a javelin. Instead I threw turbojavs like the discus to get a feel for having a solid but not super strong left side. In my opinion the ground is where force comes from and the throw should come from the ground. The fact is that stretch reflex is faster and more powerful than muscle contraction. My technique was performed with the idea of allowing stretch reflex to perform the work and to create the greatest separation possible in the front of the ring. The left leg comes into the front of the ring more quickly because of the stretch reflex that occurs in the back of the ring and the dynamic drive of the left. Windmilling the left or stepping through is a muscle contraction that will be slower and will naturally pull your weight toward the toe board.

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published at May 11th 2010 5:58pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

Andy,
I think the beauty of this exchange in philosophies is genuine in that its overall purpose will bring us closer to biomechanical truths of the movement and not our own agendas.
One of the things I believe is that our form is biomechanics differs from that of the true scientist as they view resultant movements as causual. As you stated about the right leg only turning after the left leg leaves the ground. The effect indicates this but the action would be very difficult at best at best in order to impart adequate force. It would be great for Dean to chime in on his movement out of the back. It has always been my position that the longer the rt leg is on the ground out of the back the more influence the UB will have on the turning of the body to the middle. If the lower of the COG out of the back creates linear force across the ring I would want my rt leg to used earlier in order to turn my body and facilitate my lt leg to the toeboard. I believe that the only part of the lt leg that gets the stretch reflex actions of sorts in the upper portion of the thigh as the lower leg should maintain its oringinal angle of bend.As the lowering lt hip and the swinging rt leg stretch the thigh away for the COG , it will reflex back to the COG as the lt foot leaves the ground. I totally agree with your position about the circle getting too small but differ in the cause. The extension of the lt leg couple by the lowering of the lt hip may carry the thrower too far across the ring.
Oldfied said to a friend of mine after his AR,"I had a javelin block." I believe there are some similarities here. The lt arm puts the chest in a full state of stretch so that the extension of the lt leg competes the motion and the stretch reflex which facilitates delivery.
I think you r views on the neutral nature of the UB are consistent with mine. The UB should follow the actions of the legs.
I would also agree with your phase 5 analogy as the rt foot pivot in the middle moves teh hips to the lt leg ahead of the UB , the lt leg loads or bends slightly. As the lt leg begins to extend, it raises the body in the horizontal to vertical conversion and provides lift to the implement.

published at May 11th 2010 7:29pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Thoughts/ideas on Godina's change in this dept throughout his career? When he threw 22m in 1995, he had a very pronounced "sprint" to the front of the circle. When he was throwing 22m in the 2000's, it seemed like he was driving off the left more and keeping the rt leg under him.

BTW...he threw 22m in 1995 and 2005. Did anybody else have 22m throws a decade apart? Beyer maybe?

Great discussion!!!!

Kemeny

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published at May 11th 2010 8:12pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Bassfly50

Beyer:

1973 20.16 1 Potsdam 20 Jun
1974 20.20 2 Leipzig 6 Jul
1976 21.05 1 OG Montr

published at May 11th 2010 9:21pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Bassfly50

...

published at May 11th 2010 9:23pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from 70footer

when I trained with Mac Wilkins in 1985 I had my best season , he spent the entire year repeating ONE THING ....rotate way out over the left side out of the back , no leaning ....then use the right leg only to get to the middle , move the right leg from its position way outside of the ring and cut it in close in a circle, this should be done just like SLAMMING A DOOR ...the left leg in the meantime was to drop straight down into the center of the ring and stay there. Making for a strong HINGE to the door.
I couldn't do it , very tough , I probably got half of the action , I was able to drop my left knee right straight down into the center of the earth and keep it there , but never got the right leg SLAM ...without leaning it just hit all my bad habits...and I instead pushed off the back as Andy said....seems to me two GREAT throwers Andy and Mac ....perhaps BOTH are correct...one sprints across , one doesn't sprint instead SLAMS a door with the right leg creating intense momentum and seperation ....?

published at May 11th 2010 10:12pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I have watched you over the years in SJ and on vid since I've been on the ring. I understand the sensation of driving off of the lt leg out of the back. If one is to look at your vids, it is my belief that you are infact swinging your rt leg with rotational force and not estending your lt leg as in a push off. As the forces take you across the ring and the active rt leg enhances the vaccum effect it pull youoff of your lt leg giving the sensation of a push off. I'm not attempting to contradict, only to clarify.

published at May 11th 2010 10:52pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from 70footer

might be Mick ....comes down to a feeling and I just know that what I experienced was NOT all that Mac was attempting to give me...when done correctly there is a very distinct feeling of SLAMMING a door shut , without the body moving in all sorts of additional forces...this SLAM SHUT throws the shot backwards and the hips rotationally forward.... a feeling of the SHOT IS THROWING ME! ya almost wanna yell BONZAI as you go across the ring. SO I didn't get all of it and would psuh off out of the back which was not part of the technique when complete

published at May 11th 2010 11:26pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

Thanks for sharing that insight. The feeling you describe makes complete sense as the force of the lt leg squat combined with the powerful rt leg would create a tremendous pull on the stationary(at line up) shot and almost feellike it were moving backwards. The genious of what Sylvester pioneered first and then Wilkins evolved, was the use of gravity in the discus, somewhat like the unseating in the glide in the shot. I advocate this movement along with the pivoting around the COG in the middle of the ring as JP did so well. This is why I believe that it is the compilation of all of the great thrower's tech strengths that will ultimately help to build the most efficient tech. My thoughts

published at May 11th 2010 11:38pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/