Quote from Big Adam
I understand your sprinting analogy but would pose one observation. We have seven feet to work with, sprinters have 100m+. I know you had more of a linear style which you could use to your benefit being shorter. I was taught a more rotational style which involved getting around each axis while on balance to increas seperation. When you push out of the back you risk over-stepping the center of the circle and then "crashing the middle" or landing to heavy on your right foot. When you are too heavy over your axis in the middle your right foot has trouble turning and all of the force the "push" out of the back gave you would be for not. If you watch Oldfield the only reason he was able to push out of the back was because he was patient in doing so. He waited till the last moment when his right foot was directly over center to push out of the back. He was perfectly on balance with no lean whatsoever into the middle. Also, he was great at getting the ball out and around his left side which put the ball through the longest path possible. He didnt cut any angle short. He truly had a hybrid linear/rotational style.
As far as leg sweep goes I would actually use my leg sweep and left foot turn to get me out of the back and out and around my left side. This allowed me to have a relaxed upperbody out of the back and increase seperation.
I hate to disagree with you but a "sprint" for a rotational throw does nothing in my opinion but make him overstep the middle and not be able to turn the right foot.
Only you know you best and you threw much further than I did. In my opinion you had a good hybrid between styles and relied on your left side to open you in the direction to sprint. You still did a pretty good job of getting the ball out and around and you had an increibly fast right foot. Its amazing how the body becomes more efficent at a motion the more it is performed.
I love technical discussions.
published at May 11th 2010 2:00am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from jucs
I agree. You cannot push off your left unless you are leaning in some fashion. It cuts off rotational force of the right leg and stalls what could be advanced pivoting facilitated by the right leg. Try this. Get balanced on the left and all the weight with your upper body neutral and not leaning forward or backward. Now, try and push off the left. It's not possible. You'll just hop up in the air.
published at May 11th 2010 2:23am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Bloom
Your observation is valid but sprinters don't look at the race as 100 meters. To them, it is 55 steps and each step propels them 2 meters closer to the finish. The efficiency with which they can create force and propel their center of mass leads to faster times. I look at the ring as being divided into sections and the efficiency with which I can move from one portion to the other while creating as much torque and force as possible will lead to greater throws.
Let me pose a scenario: you are walking across the parking lot and come across a 3 foot wide puddle. When you go to jump over it do you push off your left and drive yourself into the air or do you drive your right knee and try to pull yourself over? I am driving as hard as I can and jumping over the puddle. You are getting wet.
I disagree that driving out of the back encourages crashing the middle. It is a technical point and through technical work is mastered. That being said, I trained that skill for hours every day and for months every year. Through repetition comes technical improvement.
I would disagree that the throw is rotational. The movement is a pivot out of the back to a straight line sprint out of the back and then a pivot to a straight line drive through the finish. The thrower needs to keep the ball moving as linearly as possible across the circle. Rotating causes way too many problems.
What is your technical model? It would be easier to know who you think has had the correct idea.
published at May 11th 2010 3:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Dan McQuaid
Andy, do you think your interpretation of left leg drive owes something to your ability to drop so low on your left out of the back?
published at May 11th 2010 3:25am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Bloom
I dropped my upper body because I found that it stopped me from dropping my left shoulder in the back of the ring and allowed me to stay more on my left and get a better sprint. The whole technique was built around using good left leg drive to get out of the back of the ring and land in a good balanced position in the middle. There is no doubt that my strength and explosiveness allowed me to get into that position and come out of it, but I spent a lot of time developing my sprint and would train in blocks and did a lot of running.
published at May 11th 2010 3:34am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Big Adam
My technical model was given me by my uncle Brad Mears. He spent a lot of time studying biomechanical models in general and found that the longer the path the ball moves through the more force can be applied.
When I turn out of the back I don't jump or push or anything like that. I simply step using the momentum of the leg sweep and pull my knee to my waist at the last moment. This puts my right foot dead center every time and allows my right foot to turn, then I use my left step through to the front to add speed and pin my upperbody back so that I can push on the ball as long as possible. It is a slow acceleration from front to back.
published at May 11th 2010 3:36am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Bloom
If you land dead center then I think you land short in the ring. The goal should be to land 8-10 inches past center so your base is tighter and allows for better leg drive. The left foot step through has been shown to be biomechanically inferior through the work done with the discus throwers. I believe it leads to a shifting of the weight toward the left side which reduces power and increases fouling.
published at May 11th 2010 3:48am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Big Adam
I have to disagree with landing past center. Shorter bases lead to less balance and a greater chance of weight shift. Plus it is difficult to maintain a good knee bend with a short base. I think it would make u land too tall in order to explode into the shot. I am curious about the step through being inferior. How else would u plant your left at the front quickly other than a stepping into that position? A good example of the technical model that I most identify with is either Rutger Smith or Cory Martin. I really like Rutgers' technique a lot.
published at May 11th 2010 3:58am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Norm Balke
"If you land dead center then I think you land short in the ring. The goal should be to land 8-10 inches past center so your base is tighter and allows for better leg drive. The left foot step through has been shown to be biomechanically inferior through the work done with the discus throwers. I believe it leads to a shifting of the weight toward the left side which reduces power and increases fouling."
The limitations of posting, as you stated earlier.
"The goal should be to land 8-10 inches past center so your base is tighter and allows for better leg drive." Which leg? Both legs? How does the narrow base automatically create better leg drive?
" The left foot step through has been shown to be biomechanically inferior through the work done with the discus throwers. I believe it leads to a shifting of the weight toward the left side which reduces power and increases fouling."
Who has done such a study? How do you define the "left foot step through?"
"Shifting of weight" When? In the back? Middle? Front?
"Increases fouling" how so?
Thnx for any clarification, I'm sure many would like to hear from a 71', 220+' thrower on this subject.
published at May 11th 2010 5:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from freelance
My understanding of Mike Young's - Biomechanics of the Rotational Shot Put. How does this fit with the conversation......
1. Long sweeping free leg out of the back (Create as much distance from toe to toe)
2. Greater Vertical displacement of the Center Of Mass during the flight phase. (get off the ground, this helps load the right leg when you land in the middle of the ring, thus creating a plyometric stretch reflex)
3. Greater rear leg (right for a right handed thrower) knee flexion (105-115 degrees) at Rear Foot Touch Down.
4. Optimal shoulder to hip separation at Rear Foot Touch Down.
5. Short transition time.(RE. get the block foot down fast)
6. Front leg (block leg) extension at moment of release.
7. Greater horizontal release distance. (reach out over the toe board to release the shot put)
8. Optimal angle of release.(between 32 and 38 degrees, this might be different than the mathematical calculation of 40-43 degrees often stated)
published at May 11th 2010 7:35am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from jucs
Fouling is due to being off balance starting right out of the back.
And, that's not caused by a rotary right and not pushing off the left. It's caused by lack of balance, period. You are stuck with what you start with out of the back. If someone is leaning with their upper body, then you cannot "blame" not pushing off the left as the culprit.
You are looking at effects rather than causes.
published at May 11th 2010 12:11pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Will
2010 Lindenwood Summer Throws Series
USATF card required.
All competitors will take 6 throws if one fair during first 3.
Location: Lindenwood University Track, St. Charles, Missouri
Campus Map : http://www.lindenwood.edu/about/campus_map.cfm
June 19th, 26th Open and Masters
July 10th, 17TH, 31ST Open and Masters
You may enter up to 4 events. Minimum age is 15 for all meets
Proof of Age: A copy of a birth certificate, certified baptismal record, passport, U.S. Military I.D., driver
published at May 11th 2010 1:46pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from ToTheRight
Does anybody know who is throwing from the US at the Doha Diamond League Meet? The website isn't listing them. Thanks
published at May 11th 2010 2:19pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from tomsonite
Reading through this whole discussion I saw a few comments about doing things out of the back to create a longer path for the ball to travel through, thereby increasing the time that force can be applied to the ball, leading to higher release velocities.
In the spin though, isn't there a relatively long "zero support phase" though? There is a short amount of time where the thrower is not in contact with the ground at all...this breaks the "longer path" the ball is accelerated over because as has also been stated in this discussion, you can't apply any real force with one, or no feet on the ground!
I always understood that the spin can lead to farther throws because it allows the thrower to land in a more closed, "wrapped-up" power position. So the longer path of the ball is really just in the second half of the throw.
My question is, does it really matter what you do out of the back, as long as you land in a good wrapped-up, balanced power position? Or does one method out of the back lead to more momentum in the PP than another?
published at May 11th 2010 2:25pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
So for clarification purposes, can we assume that if an athlete that drives out of the back on his/her left leg gets incrementally beeter the harder and more completely they extend off of that left leg out of the back? Is this the argument here?
published at May 11th 2010 3:01pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from jason
in response to the little debate thats been going on here about the left leg drive and a powerful right leg sweep...
i think they both have to be done, and if you ignore one, thats when you have a breakdown. if you only push off the left, what happens to your right? you're going to lose a lot of rotational power. a you might as well glide if its only linear. i always thought the point of the rotational shot is to gain power with a right leg sweep, at least i think thats what randy barnes did. if you only sweep the right and dont push off the left, what happens to your left? it floats behind you and you have 1 foot on the ground for too long. i was taught its a combination of the two. and the combination depends on the athlete. i can name 100 throwers who wouldnt have the success andy bloom had bent over like he was in the back of the circle. i would be willing to bet he wouldn't have thrown 70ft coming out of the back the way reese hoffa does(no offense mr bloom). i know thats a worn out argument, but it seems to be something that is missing here. its all relative to the athlete.
published at May 11th 2010 3:07pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Mark G.
Hope all's well. This is the provisional list for Doha as of 5/7/10:
Shoot me an email as time allows to let me know how things are going.
published at May 11th 2010 3:11pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Mark G.
Neither happens in isolation.
A hard right needs a firm/strong left to resist the forces created/transferred through the left foot (ground reaction force).
A driving left needs a strong/aggressive right if it (the right leg/hip) is ever going to get out in front to lead the throw.
The cues used, or the right side/left side emphasized, by the coach/athlete are simply ways to encourage the timely excecution of the proper technical model.
P.S. I've always cued my throwers to attack with the right leg, then react quickly to the action of the right by getting off of the left thus allowing the left to chase/slingshot/react past the right leg while on its way to the front. I hoped to have my athletes create a big, well torqued up PP, with a strong/dynamic stretch reaction at the front with both feet in contact with the circle (in the PP) for a long time to deliver the shot.
published at May 11th 2010 3:24pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
So you are saying basically that that the driving lt leg out of the back works in conjunction with the rt leg sweep to run into the left leg in the front in order to facilitate the release?
published at May 11th 2010 3:30pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/