Quote from jayess
You are correct that knowing those variables will allow you to calculate the distance the implement travels, but only if the implement is a shot put. (Because a discus is also greatly influenced by lift.) And knowing release velocity, release angle, etc with any precision is difficult at best, and virtually impossible from a single-camera video. So I'm guessing they didn't have that data.
I would bet that what they did is measure how far it was to the point on the hill where it landed, and then estimate how far it would have gone had the hill not been there. That estimate might have been a good one, or not. I would really be interested in knowing how far it was to the point on the hill where it hit though. If it was around 70m, that 74.67 estimate would have been pretty believable. Since they didn't disclose that number all we have is a claim by a guy with a funny accent that a 40 year old man who in his prime never threw 70m, suddenly ripped off a 74.67.
I'm calling BS on this one.
published at Feb 26th 2010 12:06am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from tomsonite
Wrucky: "This isn't true, what about the rate at which it is spinning, the wobble and rim weight, the tilt etc?"
Yes, it is. Look up equations of projectile motion. Spin rate, rim weight, wobble, tilt are all things that would only be significant if air resistance is present, which I said needs to be taken into consideration. As far as far training throws, yes, they don't count if they aren't properly measured in competition. But they weren't claiming this as an official world record.
Jayess: yes, obviously air resistance greatly affects almost any projectile. They may have had the proper release data, after all they may have had other cameras or equipment that they didn't show. Though I do agree that measuring where the disc landed on the hill and going from there is more likely, since having any kind of motion analysis equipment outside would be a pain and is impractical.
Its very unlikely that with a PB under 70m, he would have "freak thrown" a 74m+ throw...but then again, Schult had never thrown over 70m, then caught a gust of wind and threw 74.08m. Maybe this throw by Oerter was carried by a huge wind. We'll never know for sure, I guess.
published at Feb 26th 2010 12:26am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from hopefullthrower
Still it doesn't work out as Brian Oldfield's 250 training throw Hee Hee,
Shure he could have been Irish with a tale like that!
published at Feb 26th 2010 1:33am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Big Adam
Barnes threw 79'2" in training but never threw over 76' in a meet. I think Oerter could have thrown that far in ideal conditions. We have all had our own "Practice Bombs".
Just a thougth.
published at Feb 26th 2010 1:58am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Kap
Some years ago, when I was recommended for the High Performance javelin position w/ USATF, I had to meet & speak with L. Jay Silvester, who was the throws chair at the time.
He asked me to drive him to the airport (he was headed back to Provo to play in his church basketball league) and while we rode he told me of a day when he was driving from Provo to a meet in Cali. On some deserted highway taking him to the meet there was quite a steady wind: when he saw a steel 55 gal barrel fly across the road about 5 ft in the air he stopped and watched it. It never landed while it was in sight! Jay parked his car, put on his shoes and started throwing off the highway into the wind so as to take advantage of the natural "wind tunnel". At a time when the WR was less than 66m he has numerous throws between 71-75m. He spoke quite affectionately of that session on some desert highway.
Ne never made it to the meet.... "How could I top that day?"
published at Feb 26th 2010 2:36am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from hopefullthrower
I just read in wikipedia, not always accurate, that the world junior record in mens shot was 20.97 by udo beyer set on july 21 1975?
published at Feb 26th 2010 2:57am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from ABG
I saw Al's PR throw in Wichata, there was a great wind and his long time partner and throwing rival Art Schwartz had just PRed by a mile, when I looked at Al it was clear that his next throw was going over 221 plus period.
The video doesn't match my memory of his PR which was in stellar conditions and at considerably less distance. I have a good idea where this estimate was pulled out of.
He is missed.
published at Feb 26th 2010 3:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Tony Dziepak
published at Feb 26th 2010 3:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Peter Lonsdale
Don't know anything about the wind etc. Story I heard is that he was on a tennis court, threw it onto a hill, the base of which was 66m away. The discus landed 4m up the hill. Sounds like over 70m to me. As for 74m, who knows? Maybe it wasn't, maybe it was. Would it have been less than 72m? Comp or not it was a great throw. The man was nearly 47 at the time.
published at Feb 26th 2010 6:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Brad Reid
Well, Al Oerter was never a dominant world record setter in the discus, certainly not compared to his Olympic successes. He had already earned 2 of his 4 golds before he even set the first of his 4 world records. His first was in 1962!
Oerter was the greatest competitive discus thrower, not the longest thrower very often. LJ was the longer thrower, just not as great in the big meets. I mentioned something to LJ regarding this, an idea I have, that since Oerter was known to be a dominant big meet competitor and much less so in the every day meets, where world records are often set, that it might have been that the extra adrenaline helped him get "up" at the Olympics; but, for other throwers, it gave them the shakes and diminished their results. He needed the adrenaline; for others, it put them over the top. Sounds plausible anyway.
No, to the silly idea that if you know all the variables you can calculate a discus result. You can't possibly know them anyway.
A discus is not a projectile thrown in a vacuum. It has aerodynamic qualities... toward the ends of long throws, a discus loses "lift" and drops away from any sort of projectile path, say like that of a round shot.
This is called "precession" and it occurs 90 degrees to the angle of the spin, so for righties, the discus can be high in the air, then suddenly fall out of the sky dipping toward the left.
Some great throwers like Powell, and Wilkins too I believe, used to use this knowledge and throw down the right sector line to gain the best wind exposure on a certain day, then let precession literally pull the thrown back into the sector.
It is surprising that a man like Ariel known for his science would perpetuate a rumor like that. my guess is it never happened, not even close for all sorts of reasons.
There is simply no visible energy in the Oerter throw that even closely approximates the kind of energy say someone like Kanter gets into a throw.
The throwers today, apples to apples and looking at big meet results, non-windy results, are 5 meters better than Oerter ever was. They just can't string together 4 golds.
published at Feb 26th 2010 1:55pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from coacht
I am a track coach in Rhode Island and have created a website called throwincollege.com (also runincollege.com and jumpincollege.com) It is a searchable database of every outdoor NCAA conference championship in the country. It is designed so high school kids can compare their performances to college athletes and help them decide where, and if, they can compete in college.
In order for it to work, we've tried to account for the weight difference of implements between high school and college. I know there is no formula, but with Bob Gourley's help, I've come up with these rough guidelines.
published at Feb 26th 2010 2:34pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from ABG
I am not saying that throw was not as far as it was claimed to be and yes it looked like one of Al's better throws, however throwing in a depression, at a hill and having this type of video coverage at the time coverage is not as ubiquidos as it is now, does naturally raise an eyebrow, not at Al but at the programs producer.
I have thrown at the ring in Chicago that Big O threw his discus and have had the story confirmed by two people who were there that it was a once in a lifetime throw that caught a high sharp Chigago wind and launched almost horizionatlly over the wrought iron fence and bounced off the top of a CTA bus .
published at Feb 26th 2010 2:38pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
I have to agree with Brad and Gary on these points. the one caveat is that these big throws are believable and a reality. In the old days Reno,Nevada used to have the best wids . They originated in the west and came roaring through the I-80 corridor. The old UNR ring was perfectly situated to take advantage of these winds.Just ask LJ about his use of the ring. Frequent calls from Squaw Valley for wind reports at UNR that often produced hurried car trips to Reno. In the early 80's Mike Weeks was the coach at UNR and still competing himself. On a windy afternoon he enjoyed their benefits. The old field house was at the end of the sector, on the middle left portion at about 220'. Mike threw several throws that not only landed on top of this building but two or three that went completly over the building. Easily 245-250". It was never talked about outside our little circle due to the unbelievable nature and distance of these throws. To this day, only our circle of throwers and coaches will discuss it due to these distances thrown. We always shared the quality of the wind conditions but never talked about how far Mike threw. If you know Mike, he isn't one for the spotlight.
published at Feb 26th 2010 3:14pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from hopefullthrower
why is it that a regular 70-71 thrower like Alekna or Kanter has not got a 77m distance, only 73s? and schult a 70man only went 74, and Riedel a 71 stadium man man never beyond 71.5? and mac wilkins who threw 70m in a championship meet only went 70?
published at Feb 26th 2010 3:34pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from GOKats
I was thinking about the flexibility required for curling, and the throw itself really brings to mind the old stlye split snatch in weightlifting. Also consider the precision to accuratley throw a rock with about the density of a shot put and stop it on ice. Not exactly the explosive speed that we are accustomed to in our arena, but still an athletic challenge nonetheless.
published at Feb 26th 2010 5:05pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hank Slam
THROWS! It seems to me that long throws are attributed to COMMUNITIES of throwers training together in groups. The magic of Old San Jose was that very fact. Also part of that equation is the availablitiy of COMPETITIONS FOR THOSE TRAINING GROUPS! There were two Bruce Jenner meets, The SJS Invitational (both Fuererbach and Wilkens WR site), Stanford, Modesto (many long throws), Johnny Mathis Inv, Berkely Inv, Salinas(windy=long!), Los Gatos (shot record is over 72'), Sacramento, and then all the Pacific Association Open meets. It was a great time to be a kid!
PS: Its kind of easy to believe in Oldfield's Discus story because I've seen some crazy ass stuff he did with the shot! Many of you finally saw him for real in 1980 in Sacramento. If he jumped out of the ring he probably did catch a big one! Plus each time I hear the story the details are pretty much the same.
Oh BTW, San Jose City College has the most awesome Discus Hammer rings/set up! All it needs is to have meets there. Anybody listening? Word has it that Koji tried to train there and was kicked out by grounds people. The LAWN hadn't been signed off on to use. Its been two years! WTF?
published at Feb 26th 2010 6:03pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/