"The Ring" archive entries from Dec 11th 2009

These are the posts from "The Ring" archive on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/ from day Dec 11th 2009

Quote from Goldman

I've heard stories about stefan fernholm doing depth jumps and other crazy things. There is a story told told by Jay Silvester that Fernholm used to go to the football stadium at byu and jump off the railing onto the grass (must be over 6 feet) and also I remember reading in a book called positive written by werner reiterer where he talks about training in sweden with fernholm and fernholm used to do depth jumps off of gymanstics boxes with a barbell and weight on his back....

published at Dec 11th 2009 12:23am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from bingisser

Skyline High School outside of Seattle has an opening too. The head coach is great and you would only be responsible for shot/disc (they have someone else for jav). I can pass along info.

published at Dec 11th 2009 1:12am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from trakn

Sunday Dec. 20th
Golden West College
Part of the VS Athletic Throws Summit will honor the Len Blutreich who passed on Sunday. Not only was he a great coach in the area for many years. But he was always willing to help anyone. Coach Blu a great husband/father/grandfather/coach and Christian will be remembered for his values and friendliness.
For more on the shot comp go to http://www.winterthrowsclinic.com or contact Don Turnbull trakn@yahoo.com if you would like to make a donation.
All money made from the shot comp and donations will go towards a scholarship for a HS Thrower.

published at Dec 11th 2009 1:17am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from trakn

Here is the link from the school with service info.

http://www.cuieagles.com/article/690.php

published at Dec 11th 2009 1:19am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from bingisser

In case you missed it, I posted an interview with 2009 NCAA indoor runner-up Steffen Nerdal of Memphis. You can read it here. He talks about his goals for the season, how training has been going, his plans for the future, and much more.

Also, I'm still looking for more athletes (especially women) that might be interested in interviews. Or, if anyone wants to write an article for us on a relevant topic, contact me. Some ideas: profiling schools, a where are they now feature on former NCAA stars, previews of meets (especially conference championships or D2/D3 championships),etc. I'm hoping to get a new feature up every week or two this year and I've already got a few good ones lined up.

Finally,it looks the the new "Throwing Blog Updates" application is working smoother on the front page.

Cheers,
-Martin (www.mbingisser.com)

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published at Dec 11th 2009 1:24am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Coach Mac

I had no idea that Coach "old" Blu had passed away from cancer. My condolances to the family and since he coached "young" Blu too 69-feet and 210' in the discus back in the 1980's in high school, he has had numerous All Americans at all levelsfrom NAIA too D-1.
He will be sorely missed in the Throws community !

mac~

published at Dec 11th 2009 1:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Bill Green

Always enjoy a spirited debate here, particularly when it is regarding something of substance.

As to whether the legend is accurate of huge athletes in the DDR dropping from a height of nearly a two story building and considering it training, or whether Stefan Fernholm jumped off a six foot railing with a barbell on his back for conditioning, I offer this perspective. Should this outrageous idea of a way to train be even close to correct, I give you this:

-the DDR actually killed Detleff Gerstenberg and other athletes from my era with training methods that clearly put achievement at all costs over humanity towards the person.
-Uwe Hohn had probably the biggest PR in the history of the throwing events in 1984, and a career ending injury in 1985, likely the result of extreme training. As great as he was, I consider any story in this category attributed to him suspect on many fronts.
-although now legendary for his fitness as a thrower, Stefan Fernholm died very young and speculation persists as to whether it was caused by his training methods and things related to them.

Urban myth, legendary story that has grown in the telling, or actual fact-extreme depth jumping is a radical training method and very dangerous.

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published at Dec 11th 2009 1:40am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Kap

came from a weight lifting accident at a training camp in Cuba. Facilities were less than optimal there and his back injury was compounded by DDR officials that refused offers from Western countries (both Finland and West Germany) to give madical services for his back surgery. DDR medical staffs botched his back surgery twice, resulting in his currently disabled w/ loss of control of his lower right leg & foot: "drop foot" being the layman's term. His career ended because of short bars and low ceilings, not exotic or extreme exercises.

published at Dec 11th 2009 2:24am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from throwfarusa

Any coaches here have their level 2 in jumps as well as throws? And if so, has that jump knowledge played an important role in your current throws training?

I am trying to decide if I want to obtain a level 2 certification in jumps and doing more research on jumps, especially research on mechanics, drills, and ply metrics.

I guess with that said is there any coaches here that have a level 2 in sprinting and throws? And if so has that played a big role in your throws training?


May end up with them all eventually as knowledge, no matter what it is, can eventually be useful.

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published at Dec 11th 2009 3:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from trakn

Throwfarusa,
I did throws and multis. Having done the throws first it made doing the multi a little easier but having both has effected training in both areas and helps with different thaught process, towards each event area as well.
I would suggest getting an additional one in another event, if you are into just learning more. Becuase unluckily I have learned through my own experiences and speaking to others that college adminstrators have no clue they always think that Level 1 is the best/elite level.

published at Dec 11th 2009 3:26am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from MadDog

I have level 2 in the jumps as well as the throws. I picked up some good general strength circuits, which I use sometimes with my throwers as well as some good warm up drills. It won't hurt to have it.

published at Dec 11th 2009 6:35am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from hopefullthrower

Are plyos and depth jumps overrated in comparison to all the other tools in the box for throwers? light implements, heavy implements, explosive lifts, slow lifts, isometric holds, negatives,one arm, one leg lifts, bounce and assisted lifts and so on and so on,
could a world class thrower be developed with any jumps or plyos?

published at Dec 11th 2009 10:28am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from hopefullthrower

should read, could a world class thrower be developed withOUT any jumps or plyos?

published at Dec 11th 2009 10:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Kap

Jumping is a very important aspect in power event training. I contend that if you only improved jumping ability you'd still throw farther- I don't have that same feeling about lifting improving distance thrown.

published at Dec 11th 2009 11:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from slug

More integrated jump training. When I started coaching HS (almost 15 yrs ago now)I had a structured program for doing plyos. I had to drag my athletes through it; they got so bored with doing straight plyos. Over they years since, I have gone to incorporating jumps into other movements and it has worked well. Soemtimes it's the wrapping paper that makes the gift.

Two cents,

Jeremy Hammond
Essex high School
Essex Junction, VT

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published at Dec 11th 2009 8:23pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from dualthrower

Its interesting to read Bill Green and others comments on depth jumping and their use, and without question abuse, in the former DDR.

When looking at depth jumping I think it needs to be taken in context of what you are trying to achieve vs what risks you are taking.

I personally know coaches from the jumping events where high (over 1m or around 3ft plus) have been used.

However these coaches were using this training to build an absolute bed of eccentric strength and were not looking for a concentric rebound from it. This type of training has been called jumping down rather than depth jumping for that reason.

I also think as throwers or throws coaches we need to consider how much eccentric / reactive strength we really require.

Do we need our athletes to ever have a level of eccentric strength that large? What risks do we predispose the athlete to?

In terms of depth jumps in my opinion the speed of the amortization phase and how quickly we move from an eccentric to concentric action is much more important than the drop height.

The drop height will obviously change with time as the athlete develops but once again just because an athlete can rebound well from a high box height is it worth the risk against the benefits in power derived?

Like all training methods depth jumps are tool not the answer to all issues a training method all should treat with a great deal of respect, more overload is not always better.

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published at Dec 11th 2009 9:13pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from tomsonite

Wouldn't jumping and things like O-lifts/throwing heavy and light implements just be different ways of accomplishing the same thing? By increasing one's jump height/distance, they are increasing their power, or their ability to turn strength into power. O-lifts and other special exercises do this as well, and throwing light and heavy implements is just increasing specific power and speed.

So my question, in a nutshell, is where do jumps differ? What makes them more special or useful than any of the other tools in one's arsenal?

published at Dec 11th 2009 10:37pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Kap

are practical application of raw power w/out a "bridge" exercise or drill. Any lifting alone won't make much improvement in throw distance w/out some connecting training to apply that gained power. My experience has shown that just jumping improved results (standing LJ, 3X double leg bounds, standing TJ and bounding) give immediate throws improved distance w/out any additional work, other than using your improved leg ability in your technique. I've found a greater direct co-relation b/ween jumps improvement and throw distance than almost anything other than just throwing itself. Over/under weight throwing, sprinting and jumping are a damn good training for most throwers, certainly those under "emerging elite" levels.
To me, it's all about "meat and potatoes" training that gives the best return for time invested.

published at Dec 11th 2009 11:05pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Tony Dziepak

The key plyo movement for hammer throwing is rebounding, which is the application of great force from high velocity eccentric through high velocity concentric.

For hammer throw, in the course of the turns, you conduct very quick squats with short range of motion.

If you do a single broad jump, you takeoff concentrically after a minor eccentric movement to get into jumping position, then you get a major eccentric movement at the landing, and nothing after. A single broad jump does nothing for hammer training except as a test in the test quadrathlon. However, if you do two broad jumps in succession, then you have a holistic rebound from the eccentric of the landing of the first jump to the takeoff of the second jump. That is your instance of training.

Stuart Togher has an event-specific weight room exercise whereby you did a quarter squat, half, squat, 3/4 squat, and almost full squat with light weight as fast as you can, as one rep.

So you stated from an eccentric movement, and decelerated and then accelerated continuously into the concentric at four different angles of the hips and knees. And each rep is a little different, so your hips are trained to sense and receive lengthening then rapidly producing force against the ground to contracting.

I think the best plyos for hammer throwers are jumping down from one short box and immediately up to a second short box. You get the complete eccentric to concentric.

#2 would be rapid repeated hurdle jumps and repeated broad jumps.

You can also do squat jumps holding DBs at the side.

In contrast, jumping up to a tall box is just a hard concentric jump, which is good training in itself for hip extension. The landing on top of the high box does not do anything--it's the hip drive while on the ground necessary to raise the CG high enough to be able to land on the high box. The box just proves that your hip extension was forceful enough.

Jumping down from a high box: eccentric load without requiring the continuation into concentric may send the wrong message to the neuromuscular system. Like a Parkour landing, you are absorbing the impact without necessarily getting that rebound contraction. Maybe limited use would be jumping from a moderately high box, but then upon landing, immediately do a vertical jump. That's essentially down one box and then up onto another box, with a little more emphasis on the eccentric.

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published at Dec 11th 2009 11:08pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/