"The Ring" archive entries from Feb 10th 2009

  • Quote from Kap

    seems the ringer throwers are behind the curve (and speerwurfers) on this point: it's been know for quite some time that heavy/hard or vertical landing on the throwing side leg kills potential distance as well as causing injury to elbow, shoulder and back. The "softstep" idea for javelin throwers should be considered in teaching right leg (for right hand throwers) action in shot and discus: light impact (no sound!) and active toe rotation on a sinking right knee. I teach the idea/image of the right landing on tissue paper: pivot over it without tearing it. This allows the left block to more suddenly stop forward momentum and channel it into the sequence of elastic reflexes, from the ground up, that "throw" your implement. Studies by Klaus Bartoneitz and many Finnish training sites using force plates during throws showed the fastest release speed and longest throws came with minimal right foot impact/force and high left foot impacts. A heavy/hard right landing starts the delivery sequence because it's essentially a block: you rotate vertically and horizontally but it happens too soon and at release you are actually falling and piking to the left..... ouch!
    Learning this skill is way more important than lifting in HS age throwers- even for a 12 lb shot a kid with basic body weight strength (push-ups, chins, sprinting and jumping) can reach very good distances with those physical abilities and good technical training. Most throwers at any age/experience have more power than they can correctly use.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 12:05am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from hilltopper

    While reading yesterdays posts, I am hearing alot of the same things. Everyone should agree technique is the most important tool. The problem in the U.S. is the support system that allows you the opportunity at the next level. Highschool throwers have to have a certain level of succes to have an opportunity in college and the same for collegiate athletes to get to the world class level. The time frame for getting to these levels, I believe is the biggest problem we have in the U.S.. We have great coaches that have bought into strength first, due to the distances needed to win or be competitive. You can win and be considered a great coach or prepare kids technically and be considered a mediocre coach. I am a highschool coach and I cringe everytime I see some of the other highschool coaches put workouts on this site. Some of these programs are more detailed then most colleges use. My goal is to get a kid to throw as far as he can and use what god gave him athletically and let the college coaches add the strength.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 12:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • published at Feb 10th 2009 1:14am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • published at Feb 10th 2009 1:49am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from w8coach

    Tony,
    I think what Hilltopper is advocating is that the most important aspect of the equation is tech eventhough strength has its place as well. When athletes begin to develop tendancies to push or voluntarily contract in order to deliver the impements, they have interfered with the neuromucular pathways that allow for stretch reflex and complete motions. I believe that it is important to strengthen the body to throwing sahpe that can handle the stresses of increased gravity demands incurred during the movement without getting so strong that they loose the the feel of the implement.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 1:59am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from Tony Ciarelli

    w8coach, I will refer back to what Viking said every athlete is different and has to be treated so. Hilltopper said he would leave the strength training to the college coaches, I think with that philosophy he is short changing at least some of his kids. Every person develops in their own time, some sooner some later. I mean it's no different than what you teach in the ring. If you had two throwers both just starting and one picks up the techniques very fast and the other does not, do you keep them at the same pace in their learning? It's not fair to either one to treat them the same.

    WASA~KI~SHIN
    Tony Ciarelli
    Capo di tutti Capi

    published at Feb 10th 2009 2:11am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • published at Feb 10th 2009 2:22am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from Kap

    I don't look at the left leg exit action as being held back or "feathered": (tho' that's a word I like) I want the exit action to be quick and dynamic but coupled with the energy the right leg swing adds and combine the 2 into a directed, relaxed effort that gets you behind the block without loss of flow on the right foot. Issac Newton (throws coach par excellence) taught us there is an equal and opposite re-action to any action, so in order to have the left leg in front of the hips/CG to block well as the right lands and pivots it needs to "get there" from a quick, takeoff so it is in front quickly. It's a powerful effort but at the speed end of the power spectrum for a good exit, I feel. The syncing of right sweep/left takeoff is where Danik and other discus greats found that what they did out of the back of the ring mirrored what happens in the front.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 2:35am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from hilltopper

    My post wasn't to debate how coaches coach their kids. I know Tony is very weight room knowledgeable and I am sure what he teaches and coaches is to the best of his knowledge. I am not down grading coaches. I believe coaches and kids are put in a no win situation. To get noticed in highschool you have to have decent size, and throw far. The highschool implements can be manipulated by strength. We are looking for great technicians at all levels of throwing. Yet, the window of opportunity gets smaller the longer it takes you to throw far. So, our answer is the weightroom. I love weightlifting and I wish every kid I worked with had a minimum 250 clean and 30 inch vertical leap. But all kids are not created equal. I have coached for 15 years and I have coached all shapes and sizes. I have had successful kids and some not so. My point was only that we need a system that doesn't rush kids to throw far while learning to do it right. There is a fine line between time spent on tech and the emphasis on it and time spent throwing huge numbers up in the weight room. And to the coach or whom ever said you have to lift to prepare the kids for college, that is the problem, we believe kids have to be a certain strength or size to be prepared for college. That is a misconception.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 3:54am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from Coach Rodney

    Many of us know that Tech and Strength are important to our events. At the high school level, we don't have time to do things the best way. Many pro's and con's to strength programs, the majority of young HS throwers here in the states, play football and are coached by the football coach in the weightroom. Only a handful of coaches that coach football and the throws have a good to better program ie;Tony C and Newport Harbor. There are many that don't have the luck to do this. Many coaches that are there to coach the throws have little experience and many aren't willing to learn. You have some that give the kids the implement and say go throw! There are some who don't know a thing about the way throwers should train and lift, and they will not go to classes or clinics to learn. Some go the extra mile to see that their throwers are training at the higher level. We need to adapt and prepare for the upcoming season, come up with a program that will benefit the young thrower. Communicate with the other coaches, ie the football coach who controls the weight room. If you were a coach in countries outside of the USA and you work with young throwers, what do you have to give that young thrower? How do they train? How long does that thrower train? It might be different then here in the states? There are many aspects to this title of Strength vs Technique. Really it depends on the program, the coach, the young thrower. Those who want it bad enough will go the best way. That extra mile. My thoughts.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 3:57am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from w8coach

    The point I was trying to make wasn't achallenge of your philosophy, only to say that what Hilltopper wroe was probably a little out of contect. I don't think he means he doesn't weight lift with his kids it's just much lower on his HS totem pole than the weights. In short HS season, a kid is going to get a lot more out of tech than attempting to change his strength in the same short time.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 4:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • published at Feb 10th 2009 4:10am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from Kap

    I was told years ago by Helsinki Oly silver medalist Bill Miller that ".... words are powerful." That comment has kept me quite selective about the way I describe aspects of throwing and technique- for instance i will NEVER talk of "driving" the hip as it brings up the actions you so nicely described as to be avoided! If you haven't already figured it out, I use analogies/"word pictures" to get concepts or ideas across. Along the lines of what Jesse Owens said I'll tell athletes to move "like they're barefoot on hot coals" or for cold climate kids "... don't break the skim ice" or the tissue/rice paper image. I do ask them to "leave a crater" when the block hits, but it's an anlged one, as they hit it "sliding" in behind it.
    Bartoneitz showed (at least for javelin throwers) that a 10% increase in speed (runway- ring I'd assume as well) required a 4X improvement in block ability to make use of that speed. Most automatically think of more squat power/weight needed but much can come from simply being in better position when you land so, as the Big O puts it, your skeleton can handle the stress, not joints, muscles and tendons. cleaning up "how you get there" can help "make' you stronger more than reps w/ small cars.

    published at Feb 10th 2009 4:25am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from gripnrip

    This is the easiest way to look at it, there can be good throwers that do not lift, and there can be good throwers who lift a lot. The great throwers are the ones that combine both aspects to because a great thrower. In the throwing events, there is no way you can be an elite level thrower in the world without doing this. It does not mean you have to be a monster in the weightroom, but you have to respect and do your thing in there.

    A.G. Kruger

    published at Feb 10th 2009 6:34am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from jayess

    If one only need a certain base level of strength in order to throw far, and the magic ingredient is combining that strength level with high quality technique...then why is there so much talk on this board about so-and-so benching a Buick, or squatting Rosie O'Donnell?

    Doesn't that kind of talk do a disservice to the "young-uns" who are trying to find the best path.

    (That "young-uns" was for you Brad Reid, being an expatriate Texan.)

    published at Feb 10th 2009 8:27am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • published at Feb 10th 2009 10:14am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

  • Quote from Kap

    training properly to throw makes you strong almost always but training to get strong does not relay at as high a co-relation. There needs to be a balance in lots of areas to meet the end result of more distance thrown. And if you don't see how the many parts of training must more or less be in balance with each other it's easy to stray into too much of what was a good thing.
    The training in technical movements and throwing many things of many weights teaches technical positions and the range of physical and mental needs for success. This teaches sound mechanics as well as developing lots of specific power and flexibility. To me, this is the basis of training young (under 17yrs) throwers, especially if they only come to throwing in HS (13-14 yrs old). 8 X 60m continuous discus turns w/ a 5k hammer (handle on ball, done lefty & righty) will make your legs, core and shoulders damn strong and give you a sense of moving with balance and rhythm. Lots of med ball and shot throws are ways to develop explosive power- there's a news flash for all of you. I think you add strength when you know how to use it, especially early in the learning curve- too much power too soon can make technical flaws easy to ingrain for the sake of short term success and certainly lead to injuries from poor delivery positions. While this is, to me, almost gospel in training HS throwers the basic concept is helpful to sub-elite to elite as well. I had more than a few "conversations" with my throwers last season keeping them more restrained in the weight room as their technique could not safely handle increased power. 2 out of 3 had 4m PB's and average upped by 2-3m. The lone athlete who did not PR had major technical renovations and is now to the point where power increases will be well handled- current program is a lifting day, day off, med ball/shot throws in technical ways, day off, weights, day off, tech/throwing power, day off, repeat over 8 weeks. Working over 40 hr week mandated some tweeking of a "normal" schedule but this looks to increase raw and special power plus technique and special flexibility all in equal measures.
    It's not "...all roads lead to Rome" as much as ".... a lot of different roads lead to Rome".
    My .02E

    published at Feb 10th 2009 10:35am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

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