Quote from Viking
"And as for the "consistency/pressure" issue, from 2000-2007 Adam Nelson averaged 21.37/70' at WC's and OG's. Thats as consistent as anyone has ever been in this sport!!!
Had he not been hurt the Americans likely would have gotten 2 medals, including a possible gold and we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place."
-Adam Nelson is the best overall shotputter of the last decade.
He hasn't won a gold at the Olympics though.
His SB average throughout the 7 year span you refer to must be over 22m.
"What ifs " don't nake history books.Injuries are a part of the game.
We are at 2008,if you add 0 to the total and divide by one more,the average will go much lower.
""Andrei was injured in '88"??? I don't care. Godina was injured in '05 and Nelson was injured this year. Cantwell was injured at the US championships last year. "
--Andrei got 7th in the toughest Olympics ever.
What did Godina,Nelson and Cantwell do when injured ?
Plus,you just mentioned in your post Nelson's injury about chich you do seem to care...and went on with a bunch of what ifs about him and the American team.
Thanks for strengthening my arguments.
"The problem is not with the spinners its that the American season doesnt set them up for success at the games. The #4 and #5 finishers at these olympics threw PR's with the spin."
-This is a big part of the problem,but competing a lot seems to be a part of the athletes' plan rather than something that's forced on them.
It seems to be their choice.
Otherwise they could have stayed at home and train without competing in the 2 month or so time span.It's not so small a time frame to peak again,it's a bit more than the indoor/outdoor games gap.
"And as I stated in my previous post, there are many, many instances of 22-23m gliders who threw poorly at big meets. The glides "consistency" is grossly overstated. Mikhnevich, for example threw poorly and didnt medal at the 2004 OG's and 2005 World Championship. He just barely threw 21m and medaled a week after throwing 22m...but I thought the glide was consistent?????????"
-Consistency isn't about throwing near your PR only.
It's also about throwing as much as you need when you actually need it.
It's also about throwing more or less the same in wind,rain,morning or afternoon,at home or in the other end of the world.
It's also about not fouling.
It's about control.
"This discussion isnt about women putters, its about male spinners. "
--This discussion is about which technique holds better in major competition,in this case the biggest of all,the Olympics.
It's also about the team decision about making everybody a spinner.
"Another problem is the small but vocal group of glide apologists who eagerly wait for a spinner to have a bad meet so they can post nonsense on message boards."
-The problem is with the vocal spin enthusiasts that fail to face reality even after all is said and done and the results are undisputable.
They are the people that perpetuate this problem with nonsense about the "Big 3 " and talking about sweeps all the time...
Modern athletics come down to actual science and very advanced too.Science cannot be based on what people think,actual data have to be put on the table.
When you put all your eggs in one basket blindly trusting a technique that setas you up for the "big one" not caring about consistency and control,this is what you come up with.
The last big one was in 88 and even that wasn't enough.
The fact is that after O'Brien,Nieder and Long there never,ever was a "Big 3" again and there never will be.
They were multi Olympic gold winners,they were multi WR holders and they were winning wherever they went.
published at Aug 24th 2008 1:13am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
You aren't going to present me every failure of every glider in history here...are you lol ???
In 92 Gunthor lost to a PRing glider.
He didn't bomb,he was just out of the medals.
And there's a reason he had a bad performance.
...And he had a huge,winning foul although a glider...i'll give you that.
For the sake of good,sincere conversation.
But he's probably the only such case such as which there are dozens from spinners,no ?
published at Aug 24th 2008 1:21am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
Sorry for all the glide-hating. I just think some people make the mistake of thinking every glider will throw close to his PR every time he sets foot in the ring. This is quite a misconception.
I don't really think it matters who wins the competition, spinner or glider. The fact is Gunthor had a 22.70ish PR and he threw 20.90m.
And nobody in the gliding camp ever cares to mention how Mikhnevich, a 22m glider couldnt muster 21m tosses and medal at the '04 games or '05 WC's. He got a medal by a cm at these olympics. But Nelson or Hoffa throw poorly and people erupt with criticism.
Lastly, Nelson and Hoffa did underperform at the games, but had they been gliders and not spinners they wouldnt have even been to the games, nor would they have as many World Titles, Olympic Medals, or world #1 rankings.
published at Aug 24th 2008 1:59am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
I really think the main issue here is not just the style an athlete chooses to employ but more importantly the the way the trials and games are run. They are run with the television in mind. It is not set up to allow the athlete to perform at his or her best. Warm-ups taking place an hour plus at another location, paraded over through several checking stations to make sure the athletes know how to march in a straight line, standing in the tunnel patiently waiting for the prededing flight to compete, two warm-up thrws and bang , the expereince is over. Clearly the advantage goes to the bigger and stronger athletes which have been gliders. The technicians operate more on feeland require more drills and throws to get the proper feelings. These World stages should be set like any invitational meet, allowing proper warm-ups on the field. It's not like we would have wasted any TV coverage as there wasn't much anyway.
published at Aug 24th 2008 1:59am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from VALENTI
Not really the place to discuss USA weight lifting ,but if it were me I would beg plead and steal to get Bud Charnniga and Louie Simmons involved in some way or another. I know , I know Louie Simmons doesnt know anything about weight lifting...Well he knows strength and speed an how to get it. Bud Charnniga is the black sheep of USA weight lifting ,the only probelm is he has way too much knowledge and insight to be ignored.
I might look to people who are having success in the Olympic lifts out side of weight lifting circles. How did people like Jud Logan and Mike Stulce put up such huge cleans and not spend every waking hour training it.
And someone asked why we didn't see any Americans on TV in China...none of them qualified....none of them.
published at Aug 24th 2008 2:26am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from DiscusHook
This is the most reasonable explanation posted in the past several days.
The USA team underperformed on the track and in the field.
This is not a glide VS spin issue. Viking suggested we only taught the spin. Funny, it seems to me that these throwers made their own choices and decided on the technuque that they feel allows them the best chance to perform well.
Over the course of their respective careers, it seems like they have chosen wisely.
Our throwers had an off meet, all at once. Timing certainly sucks. But they've got a lot of company. Ask Wariner, Jones, Gay, Walker, both 4X100's, etc.
Don't ask Brown-Trafton. She rocked. You might want to ask her competitors though...
published at Aug 24th 2008 2:32am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
"There are good reasons for each and every time they performed badly.
Gunthor missed the bus going to the stadium and had to run to the stadium for the final.
Beyer had multiple injuries and surgeries.
Andrei was injured.
Mikhnevich...i don't know.Maybe the result out of line was the 22m PR,not his 21m performance at the Games.
The difference is that when the spinners perform badly they are all in top condition !!!
The bad performances are not due to lack of conditioning or top form,it's about the inherent problems of the technique ,the fouling and not good timing !"
--On the one hand you say you "cannot speculate" on poor performances in Europe, but go on to imply that gliders only throw bad when they are injured or miss the bus, and that no spinner that performs poorly has ever been at anything less than "top condition".
I have a lot of trouble a guy can go from throwing 20.30m or 21m to throwing 22.50m in 10 days.
"The world bests and rankings mean nothing,i don't care who is No1 and how far it went.I'm the one that said in this very forum that even if Mikhnevich had thrown 24m in Belarus (or something like that) it would mean nothing because it's all about the Olympic games.
For all i know ,and i've been around a bit, most huge PRs in home ground are suspicious in many ways."
--Ok, but we can still use it to compare eras. I believe I also included the medal totals of both gliders and spinners.
"It's something the US team has to find a solution to and the game plan for the Olympics seems to be the same every time,every time the result is disappointing and every next time the plan remains the same !!!
Which is ridiculous !!!"
--In 100% agreement, and the result would be the same or worse if Americans were gliding. This has been my argument all along.
published at Aug 24th 2008 3:03am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
Viking, I think you ae saying that your preference is to the TV coverage and the pomp and circumstance associated with it. If you are looking for athletes being able to perform at their very best, then you have to expand your comfort zone and put all athletes, not jus the big and strong, into the best possible scenario. The "A" standard is already high enough to limit the field entries.What is the problem with letting the athletes woarm up in the stadium so the fans can watch that process? Don't say we would be giving up valuable TV time or we aren't watching the same channels, apparently. The throwers have devleoped such a strong following that we have the The Ring, Macthrow video, we'll get to see it in it's entirity anyway. If the throwers throw farther at the Oly's because of the propossed changes in warm ups, then we might enjoy some TV time. You said it youself, TV controls the sport now as the Olys aren't going to change. Isn't it about time that people educate the TV people as to what format suits long throws and big performances? Just because it is the way it exists today, does that mean that is the best way for the competitors and the way it should stay?
published at Aug 24th 2008 3:09am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
I do agree that it would be better for the athletes ,fans and even TV to have athletes warmup for a much longer time.I wish things were different.
But until that changes in big meets such as the Olympics,any such change in small meets only serves to disorient athletes of what really happens in big meets.
Athletes in order to perform their best at the Olympics have to train and compete the way they will compete at the Games.
"On the one hand you say you "cannot speculate" on poor performances in Europe, but go on to imply that gliders only throw bad when they are injured or miss the bus, and that no spinner that performs poorly has ever been at anything less than "top condition".
I have a lot of trouble a guy can go from throwing 20.30m or 21m to throwing 22.50m in 10 days. "
---You want me to speculate? You won't like what you'll read...i think the reason for the performance drop from 22.12 and 22.10 to 20.50 is the same as for Mikhnevich's drop from 22 to 21...fair enough ? And indeed,it probably doesn't have to do with gliding or spinning.
I never said that every spinner that performs badly has alwatys been in top condition.But most bad performances are due to fouls and bad technique that day and not due to 6 fair,not so far going throws.
Gunthor never again missed the bus and the next year won in the WC.Beyer,Andrei and Timmermann won the Olympics and had a bunch of world records.
What happened to them happened only once or twice(in Beyer's case his problems never left him)...not again and again.
Hoffa and Nelson had a second Olympic appearance they performed well under their abilities in.Cantwell lost his chance in 2004 due to the same thing happening in the trials.Godina in 2003 and 2004...fouls fouls fouls...
"Ok, but we can still use it to compare eras. I believe I also included the medal totals of both gliders and spinners. "
-Since 68 the US has won 2 Olympic golds,one with an underperforming by 5 feet super-charismatic athlete and the other with a great,two times PBing in the final glider.
The OG golds are 7 to 2 in favour of gliders.
The WC golds are 6 to 5 in favour of the spinners.
"the result would be the same or worse if Americans were gliding. This has been my argument all along. "
---How do you know that ? Maybe Hoffa or Nelson are better suited to spin,but if Cantwell's perfprmance comes down to pushing it with the arm at the end for the last 3 feet ,why not make these 3 feet of acceleration path 6 or 7 with a mediocre glide?
If all coaches weren't blindly following and teaching the spin,a whole different talent pool would have come up,with taller ,longer leveraged athletes and the top athletes would be different.
The US universities are totally out of 2m athletes not going to basketball,volleyball,pro wrestling or football anymore ? Did it all stop with Matson ? I find it hard to believe !
It may not fit all the criteria of your description,that is they may not have had as many No1 world rankings or season bests or 74 foot throws,but are you telling me that the US system wouldn't be able to find a good glider to glide 70 feet at the Olympics ?
How did the Polish did it twice,the Ukrainians twice,Italians and East Germans ? All those combined have 10% of the US population and roughly half as much knowledge about the shot and the glide.
published at Aug 24th 2008 3:48am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Norm Balke
The entertaining and lengthy back and forth between Mr.Kemeny and Mr.Viking would indicate there really isn't much difference between the glide and spin.
I would venture to say that most seem to agree that the glide is a more consistent technique, but does less often does it result in hitting a big throw.
I would NOT say that Cantwell, Hoffa, and Nelson should glide. That is not the point. I think there are probably too many spinners right now.
Let's just say for argument's sake, that the success of gliders and spinners (at Olympics or WC) is 50-50. If it isn't, then it is fairly close. So maybe in the US, half the throwers should be spinners and half gliders. This goes way back to high school or early collegian throwing, when throwers and coaches are evaluating talent.
Earlier someone posted that size matters in the spin v.glide discussion. I think that has been disproven over and over. There are some extremely large dudes spinning: Cantwell, Meyerscough, Barnes, all over 300. Carter was not particularly tall, Brenner, a big man, but only about 6'3"?? Stulce, what was he? He looked pretty fit, maybe 6'3-4",270-280??
Mr.Kemeny knows deep down with his insane percentage of fast-twitch fibers, that he would have been ideal for the glide, but he he hooked up with the spin cultist, Mr.Aiken, then went on to work with Mr.Cappos, who saw a kindred spirit in the fast spinning youngster from Illannoy.
published at Aug 24th 2008 3:59am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
So gliders won every olympic gold and dominated the medal stand before we started spinning right? If you don't count the 70's or 80's I guess the answer is yes.
Godina, Nelson, Hoffa and Cantwell have won far more medals than the generation of US gliders that preceded them. END OF DISCUSSION.
Again with the "consistency" card. Show me a glider since drug testing began that was anywhere near as consistent as Godina or Nelson....you cant. Miknhevich, Buder, Bagach, Bilonog and Majewski are just as consistent or inconsistent as any of their spinning contemporaries.
You say that you'll take a glider of comparable distance to a spinner any day of the week. Why havent their been any 22m+ gliders, American or European since, I don't know, 1990 or so?
Whatever happened to Stulce? A glider throwing almost 72' at the olympics...man, you'd think he would have had a long dominant career.
Baffled in Omaha,
published at Aug 24th 2008 4:04am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
"How do you know that ? Maybe Hoffa or Nelson are better suited to spin,but if Cantwell's perfprmance comes down to pushing it with the arm at the end for the last 3 feet ,why not make these 3 feet of acceleration path 6 or 7 with a mediocre glide?"
--How do you know that Miknevich or Majewski wouldnt be throwing 21.70m consistently and winning every meet in sight if they were spinning? We can play this game all day long...Timmerman throws 24m as a spinner.
"It may not fit all the criteria of your description,that is they may not have had as many No1 world rankings or season bests or 74 foot throws,but are you telling me that the US system wouldn't be able to find a good glider to glide 70 feet at the Olympics?"
--Cantwell maybe, but would he be able to earn a living and beat Taylor, Hoffa, Nelson and Godina at the olympic trials gliding?
published at Aug 24th 2008 4:09am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Norm Balke
in the USA.
Brian Oldfield was one gifted and unusual talent who set the throwing world afire with his 75' in '75.
Word got out about how cool he was with his speedos and cigar smoking, heavy drinking and partying, and general antics.
Young guys who were into throwing and had some wild oats to sow, heard about this guy and decided that he was the guy to emulate. They all wished they could be brave as the guy who said, "Throwgasm" on TV!!
An entire Chuck Norris/Steve Prefontaine like mythology was built around that guy, WHO WAS A SPINNER!
Now, I realize that there are folks on The Ring that are friends with Mr.Oldfield. I also realize that there are fierce spin advocates on the Ring. Mr. Oldfield was a spectacular talent, of that there is no doubt. He is probably a heck of a nice guy. The spin is obviously a viable technique. I think that glide advocates are not saying "spin bad, glide good", I think that they are saying that the glide needs some serious revisiting.
It seems in the US that at the national level it is about 95% (or more) spin. Is it like that in other countries? And what about women? Why fewer spinners? Virtually none at the international level.
published at Aug 24th 2008 4:13am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
Oldfield was a big part of it, as were the countless olympic and world championship medals that Godina, Barnes, Hunter, Hoffa, Cantwell, and Nelson won...
And to clarify, I'm not "anti-glide", a girl I coached a few years ago won a state title gliding. What I have a problem with is the assumption that every time a spinner throws poorly, its because of the spin...and that we should go back to having everyone glide again when the state of american shotputting has actually improved since more guys started spinning.
published at Aug 24th 2008 4:24am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from PowerTrainer
It is not a matter of talent but of education. When you have a country like USA who has their top performers as spinners what kid wants to glide, or even knows what a glide is?? I am glad I grew up on watching videos or Timmerman, Carter, Beyer and Andrei because that motivated me, spinners did not, so I initially chose glide because of this and just went on and on with it..
Here in the U.S. we have the majority of knowledgeable coaches teaching the rotation, glide is a far cry for 2nd. I would love to go to Europe and see what coaches over there do since track is legit over there, I really would, maybe someone from there can set me up for next summer and arrange such an educational trip..
Also, since this sport is far below in popularity to football/baseball/basketball we do not have adequate INTELLIGENT coaches b/c funds are inadequate. We have a lot of coaches here who coach throws because it's an extra couple thousand bucks after their main season of football or basketball is over for them.. Or for colleges, these coaches don't get 60-70 grand a year to teach throws.. The coaching talent pool is very low..This leads me to my next inference that these same coaches who really don't know what is going on with the throws go to camps and clinics.. and what are they shown there, what is the hype??? SPINNERS and coaches who teach spinners. They are shown this b/c this is what we are all pushing in the USA, and that is that the spin is the way to go. This really is the agenda for the U.S. and if you disagree with that then you are choosing to turn away and not really see what is going on over here..
When we get some gliders who are doing their thing over here and winning with 68-70 foot throws then you will see a change. They will be exposed and used as educational models, but for now over here we are stuck in this rotational rut..
published at Aug 24th 2008 4:25am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/