"The Ring" archive entries from Aug 24th 2008

Quote from Hunter

Anyone know why he had Godina spin even though he had Brenner gliding 73'10" a couple years earlier?

published at Aug 24th 2008 4:33am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Norm Balke

Believe it or not I may have an answer.

We were fortunate enough to have an audience with Coach Venegas at the time Brenner was throwing. He coached spinners and gliders, so he wasn't strictly a glide coach. There was a guy Brian Muir who went 67' as a spinner about the same time as Brenner was throwing, for example.

In later years, it seemed he had all spinners, but none with the success of Brenner. But he had Ogden in the midst of that and he was a glider, but that may be because he was football also, and couldn't put in the time for the spin.

Godina's father has been seen on the clinic circuit, perhaps he was a spinner in HS, that I do not know.

Coach Venegas had some interesting takes on the glide, which I sure many have heard on seen in his clinic appearances.

nb

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published at Aug 24th 2008 4:42am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

"How do you know that Miknevich or Majewski wouldnt be throwing 21.70m consistently and winning every meet in sight if they were spinning? We can play this game all day long...Timmerman throws 24m as a spinner. "


--I didn't start the speculation game and don't like it.
However Timmermann did try the spin as did Kumbernuss and i guess they stayd with the glide for obvious reasons...And Martinez-Reinikainen also tried the spin with not so good results.How many Americans throwing 21m with the spin treid the glide ?
It's also obvious that the glide hasn't failed Mikhnevich or Majewski in order to try anything different.How about the spinners ?

The Belorussians don't follow a single technique blindly like you do in the US...you saw that 2 out of 3 shotputters from Belarus are spinners.They have nothing to change.
As for the Polish i'd like you to give me a single good argument on why should they try the spin with Majewski.He's only 26 and will be consistent at a very high level...for many years.


"Cantwell maybe, but would he be able to earn a living and beat Taylor, Hoffa, Nelson and Godina at the olympic trials gliding? "

---He would be able to earn a living by attending European and international meets and beating them when it counts,yes.
Was this year's 3 place at the trials so hard to achieve for a poor glider ? Or last year's ?


"Godina, Nelson, Hoffa and Cantwell have won far more medals than the generation of US gliders that preceded them. END OF DISCUSSION. "

--the generation of gliders that preceded them were basically Carter,Brenner and Stulce.The 3 of them have achieved basically as much as the 4 you mention.
World's medals(although they weren't every 2 years back then),huge PRs and an Olympic gold that they don't have.And when they planned to perform well they did.



"Whatever happened to Stulce? A glider throwing almost 72' at the olympics...man, you'd think he would have had a long dominant career."

--The same thing that happened to Hunter,Toth and Barnes...you'd think that a world champion throwing almost 72 in a WC,a WR holder and Olympics winner and an athlete with a 74,5 ft PR would have long successful careers ...

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published at Aug 24th 2008 4:44am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

If i got it right you're a proud father of a newborn baby girl ?

Congratulations !!!

PS teach her both techniques and let her decide when she's 18...

PS leave the keyboard man...we'll go on another day !!!

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published at Aug 24th 2008 4:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Thank you. She was born a few days ago.

Actually, I'm away from home doing work for my wife that requires me to be infront of a computer all day. This way my wife can get some much needed rest...Otherwise I would be with her and the baby not posting on "spin vs glide" 20 times on a saturday.

published at Aug 24th 2008 4:52am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Ok, so why hasnt he had a 21m glider in the 20 years since he coached Brenner? It seems like he has a 19-20m spinner every year.

published at Aug 24th 2008 4:55am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

Can someone tell me what's "White Man's Disease" ?

Perhaps an everyday name for a disease i know ,but i couldn't find anything to make sure what it is.

It's very sad that such a young man and a great athlete has serious health problem.I wish him the best.

published at Aug 24th 2008 4:56am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

The only way things will improve is for the athletics unions from across the World to unite and educate the TV people about what we are discussing at this very post. It may never happen but I do think if you take away the ability to to warm up properly at the other meets, you are limiting the the pusuit of the WR's excetera.

published at Aug 24th 2008 5:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

"the generation of gliders that preceded them were basically Carter,Brenner and Stulce.The 3 of them have achieved basically as much as the 4 you mention.
World's medals(although they weren't every 2 years back then),huge PRs and an Olympic gold that they don't have.And when they planned to perform well they did."

--Carter got a silver at the OG's, Brenner a bronze at the WC's and Stulce an olympic gold. I understand that those guys didnt have as many world championships to compete at but I still think their performances werent as good and consistent as the spinners I mentioned.

I was obviously being sarcastic in referring to Stulce. I just think its sad that the only American glider who has won an olympic gold medal in the last 40 years had a career that lasted essentially a few months before he got busted for drugs...hardly a model for the glide enthusiasts to hang their hats on.

It reminds me of the glide camp singing Mikhnevich's praises after he won in '03 a week after coming off a drug suspension, or Bilinog's tie for the gold in '04.

Majewski's win last week was the 1st time a glider won a big meet in clear-cut, dominating, non-controversial fashion since 1993.

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published at Aug 24th 2008 5:10am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from PowerTrainer

"The spin is obviously a viable technique. I think that glide advocates are not saying "spin bad, glide good", I think that they are saying that the glide needs some serious revisiting."

I am glad you see the point here, thank you. The glide does need to be revisited and not bashed by a lot and said that it's big performances were due to steroids. Also, that big performances in the glide have to be from drugs.. That automatically makes people give up on it... That's a bad message for kids from grammar school to Collegiate levels.


Thanks Norm !

published at Aug 24th 2008 5:10am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Great discussion.

Compare the performances at Indoor World Championships, Outdoor World Championships and Olympic Games of Mikhnevich, Bilinog, Bartels, Buder, Martinez and Majewski to those of Godina, Nelson, Olsen, Smith, Bloom, Cantwell, Harju and Hoffa. They are virtually identical....some meets over 70', a bunch at 68-69' and a few around 67'.

Because most people on this board are Americans, there's not an uproar when Miknevich doesnt get a medal at the '04 games despite being the defending world champion, or when Oliver-Sven Buder comes in 7th in 1996 and 8th in 2000 despite a 70'+ PR.

We don't even notice these collapses, but everyone goes ape-shit when Nelson throws 69'6" and ties for a gold.

Chillin at work,
KK

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published at Aug 24th 2008 5:33am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

I'm not saying that you have to be on juice to throw 70' gliding, and the spinners certainly have their share of suspensions. But taking all the suspended guys out of the equation, you've got many more 70' spinners over the last 10-15 years than gliders.

published at Aug 24th 2008 5:50am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from 70footer

someone asked what is WHITE MANS DISEASE ?, was that you Viking? well, it really depends where you are when you get it...if you are on the track and someone says "that guy has white mans disease" it generally means that you are not very fast...Jeremy Wariner used to be fast but now is not as fast , hence the term has come down with WMD ....however ,if you are on a basketball court when someone accuses you of having the disease ,then it would mean you can't shoot...and if you are on the dance floor and someone says ''wow that guy has WMD" then ya just ain't got it dude....being as you VIKING have never heard the term , one can only suppose that you are very fast, can shoot the basketball very well, and in fact got all the moves on the dance floor!!!

published at Aug 24th 2008 7:05am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

Haha !!!
I'm glad for Wariner it's not an actual disease then !!!
I really believed it was something serious...

I can assure you i'm not the best dancer around nor good at basketball...some quickness i do still have ,although for each and every one of us there comes a time we're good only for cross country skying (as per the original post)...better later than sooner of course.

published at Aug 24th 2008 7:20am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

"Compare the performances at Indoor World Championships, Outdoor World Championships and Olympic Games of Mikhnevich, Bilinog, Bartels, Buder, Martinez and Majewski to those of Godina, Nelson, Olsen, Smith, Bloom, Cantwell, Harju and Hoffa. They are virtually identical....some meets over 70', a bunch at 68-69' and a few around 67'. "


--You do understand that these identical performances from the athletes of the two groups is a big win for the glide because the athletes gliding mentioned above have actually so much less athletic talent,don't you ?
Bartels,Buder and Martinez are no Harju,Bloom or Smith...and yet they achieved pretty much the same things...
Remember when Martinez won the indoor worlds with a throw near his PR and Godina threw fouls on the cage walls...the glide gave him the ability to beat a much better athlete,the confidence to do it on the last throw (as in many wins ,like in 2004,like Bartels' win over Hoffa in 2006 World cup etc) and the spin couldn't give Godina these weapons while this superathlete fouled and fouled and lost this meet.
Where to start...Buder probably had the worst technique ever and along with Martinez reached the top with only a bench press good enough and the rest of the body hardly able to move properly or even walk in a straight line...
Mikhnevich has terrible technique but his long levers and good finish have put him at the top.
Bilonog has a good rhythmic glide but is no Timmermann or Gunthor.

On the other hand,Smith has exceptional athletic talent,great levers and rhythm.

Cantwell,Bloom, Nelson have exceptional strength and the ability to take it into the throw.
Hoffa,Olsen and Harju ,exceptionally good technicians and hence very steady performers are probably natural spinners more than anyone.One more thing: Harju was a glider initially and i think until the 95 world's in Gothenborg.


I don't know neither am i suggesting that the spinners would have thrown more using the glide,but i do know the gliders would have thrown nothing using the spin and that sometimes here it is believed you have to be a superman to throw with a glide.It's a very simple athletic movement !
In the spin rhythm and quickness of movement create distance,in the glide positions create distance.
I have seen a clip of Hunter gliding and he performed a very good glide,probably started with it and probably that's why he had such a perfect finish of the throw.

What i want to say is,make the athlete familiar with both techniques (even technique of other throws as well to learn how to throw) ,see his strengths and weaknesses,use your experience and project what his strengths and weaknesses will be in his top athletic years and choose what's best for this athlete.
Don't use a predetermined plan for any kind of athlete you have in front of you.

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published at Aug 24th 2008 7:24am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from 40Footer

I'm still waiting for OMS


Old Man Strength

I hear it comes with age...

published at Aug 24th 2008 7:40am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

Although cross country skiing goes with the tradition,i rather not do it as a sport.
And i i do (try to) let the fur and helmets aside when dancing...the boots don't help either...

And 40 footer...it's not that old age strength comes with age...it's that all the rest go and leave it alone...

published at Aug 24th 2008 7:57am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Tony Dziepak

The superweight to weight conversion for men is about 2/3. The weight is 5/8 the weight of the superweight.

For women, the 20 is a little less than 2/3 the #35, so I would expect a conversion about 60-65%. I think Dawn threw the weight in the upper 70s so I would expect 50-55'.

I am not privy to any major nonmaster superweight comps since Christian Erb's 2000 thrower's meeting.

published at Aug 24th 2008 10:16am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Norm Balke

To found out the actual distances, UCLA do not seem to dominate as they once did, I would venture his throwers have been more like 18-19m as opposed to 19-20m. I do not know if he has become a spin only coach or not.

A viable reason is that at the collegiate and HS level, these guys are doubling and it is simply easier to teach one technique. granted there are some differences, but the basics are the same.

nb

published at Aug 24th 2008 10:34am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from LetItRip

Though he didnt have a great 2008 outdoors losing trials and games, we might want to ease up on the WMD as he did split 43.2 in helping 4x4 break olympic record..

Mike
LetitRip!

published at Aug 24th 2008 2:59pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/