"The Ring" archive entries from Aug 23rd 2008

Quote from tomsonite

I'm not burying my head in the sand. I know we didn't perform well in track and field, and it pisses me off. Though instead of using the term "choke fest" I've been telling my friends "they trained in choke city before the games." (I mean ALL our athletes who choked at the games when I say that...there were a lot of them.)

So, lets talk about our men shot putters specifically. Seeing as how we agree our athletes choked, is it the spin that doesn't hold up under pressure, or was it Hoffa and Cantwell, the individuals who didn't hold up under pressure? Nelson I'm leaving out in this case because he had an injury.

There is no biomechanical flaw in the spin technique that makes it subject to "pressure" - pressure is all mental. The reason they choked is because they were not able to keep it together mentally, NOT because of the technique they used.

I was not bringing up our spinners going 1-2 at the worlds as an excuse for their performance in Beijing. I said it to make the point that the spin can, has, and will hold up under pressure. If you want to bring up the Olympics, then what about spinners going 1-2 in 1996, or spinners taking the first FOUR places in 2000?

I'd still like to hear your opinion on Dylan Armstrong getting a PB in the Olympic final with the spin...should he start gliding?

If you can present me with some actual scientific evidence that the spin doesn't hold up under pressure, then I'd love to see it. Otherwise there is no way I'll consider that being a possibility.

One more thing...I don't really think we can say Cantwell "choked". Underperformed in terms of distance thrown, yes. But to go from 5th to 2nd on your last throw, thats a sign of a good competitor.

As far as USA weightlifting goes, I can't comment, I don't follow it. Though it is disheartening to see no American weightlifters on TV (did I just miss them?)

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published at Aug 23rd 2008 6:58am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hank Slam

We, as a nation, sent the best team we had into the Olympics. You may wonder how I know that. It is because I believe our system of selection is the fairest in the World! No doubt in "my" mind.

If we had any "gliders" out there that can throw far under "pressure" then GO TO THE TRIALS! It's a free country. Choose to throw the way you want! Take a top 3 spot at the trials and guess what? Your in the Olympics! Cantwell....good job! Silver is cool, and you are one of the best ever! I still enjoy shotputting after this, BECAUSE WE ARE REMINDED THAT SHOTPUTTING IS CONTESTED ON A WORLD STAGE. Many of you are HATERS, enjoy this sport for what it is, and potentialy learn from it. It's really fun to look at it from this perspective.

Viking...you are right on with the statistical information. I also agree with you that some people are spinners and some are gliders.

I'm still trippin' over the post by Coach Rodney about a lunch date with Stephanie Trafton-Brown. He stated that in her garage (where she did her pulls) was a 12 x 12 poster of the Olympic stadiums Discus cage area, looking out to the field. SHE WAS OBVIOUSLY FOCUSED AND IT WORKED IN HER FAVOR!! How many weeks or months did she see herself in the Olympic Discus ring????? Personally, I'm inspired as a Coach and a now Masters athlete, to prepare to my best ability, or my students best abilities. I will always tell that story.

To all USA Throwers, and other T&F events....THANK YOU! You are our Nations very best! I celebrated when you won medals and I hurt when you didn't. But I want to thank you for the ride!

Ron McKee

a decent shotputter, a long time ago.

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published at Aug 23rd 2008 10:26am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from all52-6

Hi, Bassfly50,
here my data:
Borja Vivas 26.05.1984 204-140
Germ

published at Aug 23rd 2008 11:06am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from hammer1971

I saw Dawn a few years ago prior to the Millrose at manhattan college playing with the mens weight and it went about 55'-58'

published at Aug 23rd 2008 11:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from S. Schleizer

Just curious about who you would appoint to coach the weightlifters at the Training Center.

published at Aug 23rd 2008 12:24pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Dan P

i really dont think most athletes have a choice in the US. im guilty myself i will favor the spin over the glide.

but seriously look at it. how many college and high school coaches out there will voluntarily teach the glide over the spin to their athletes? from what ive been seeing at the big meets and ncaa, etc. there aint many.

so that leaves the lone athlete who decides to train by himself and somehow become an elite competitor on his own. doubt thatll happen.

its unfortunate that spinners seem to break under pressure against the gliders despite having the higher marks. it really can only mean something needs to change. only the insane can repeat the same mistake and expect a different result.

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published at Aug 23rd 2008 3:55pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Bassfly50

To all52-6

Hmmm ... that's quite a difference in stats!. I got mine from Tilastopaya. Where do you get yours?

published at Aug 23rd 2008 5:48pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Dreambrother

Going off on a tangent to what Dan P said, do some spiiners have a choice? I'm talking about shorter throwers. Would Adam and Reese have reached 22m+ with the glide? The average height of world class throwers has reduced since the 80's because the spin has allowed many smaller athletes to throw world class distances (Note I said 'many' not the odd one like Fuerbach)

Thoughts, Disagreements?

published at Aug 23rd 2008 8:14pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Kap

How about some Baltic Power love on the mens Olympic side: all throws winners and many other finalists hail from Baltic region. Must be the water (or beer- guess who's brewing Baltic porters?).....
Attempts
Rank Bib Country Name Result 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 2533 NOR THORKILDSEN Andreas 90.57 OR 84.72 85.91 87.93 85.13 90.57 -
2 2332 LAT KOVALS Ainars 86.64 PB 79.45 82.63 82.28 78.98 80.65 86.64
3 1689 FIN PITKAMAKI Tero 86.16 83.75 x 80.69 85.83 x 86.16
4 1697 FIN JARVENPAA Tero 83.95 83.95 x x x x 83.63
5 1708 FIN WIRKKALA Teemu 83.46 x 73.90 83.46 x - 78.23
6 1063 AUS BANNISTER Jarrod 83.45 83.45 80.59 82.20 - - -
7 2810 RUS KOROTKOV Ilya 83.15 82.54 x 76.84 82.15 x 83.15
8 1193 BLR KAZLOU Uladzimir 82.06 PB 82.06 77.57 74.09 x x 75.36
9 2341 LAT VASILEVSKIS Vadims 81.32 76.75 x 81.32
10 1296 CAN RUSSELL Scott 80.90 80.90 78.02 x
11 2958 SWE ARVIDSSON Magnus 80.16 79.85 79.57 80.16
12 1529 CZE VESELY Vitezslav 76.76 x x 76.76

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published at Aug 23rd 2008 9:24pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from kiltedthrower

It sort of hit me when Dan P. put in his post under "Spinners a choice" yesterday was when someone decides to train themselves they see all the big throwers are spinning. It appears that the throwers in most of the other countries like Belarus, Hungary, Poland, etc...don't train by themselves. Maybe that is really a big part of the issue here....too many kids on the grade school and high school level don't get good coaching. Maybe that is why they choose football or basketball over throwing.
I had the pleasure to hear stories from Hal C. and Boldi about the hammer program in Hungary. Watched video about the young 8year old throwers throwing in the same facility as the best throwers in the country in a ring near them. When they get good enough (a goal for them) they get to move to the ring with the better throwers and then move to the ring with the best throwers. It is a system that is funded by the gov't and they are coached by one coaching staff the whole time. I would imagine the other throws are the same way.
As far as height of a thrower (dreambrother post) goes, I believe Al Feuerbach was only about as tall as Adam and Reese and he would have had a distance far enough in the glide to win the gold medal this year. I really think it still boils down to which technique for you personally gives you the highest velocity at release.

published at Aug 23rd 2008 10:21pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from mattmega

im really suprised by an OR performance by thorkildsen. i didnt think there would be any 90m throws, but this is probably the best result for the rivalry between he and pitkamaki. They are both still young and now the norwegian has won 2 straight olympics while tero was world champ in osaka. perhaps they will push each other to break that "unbreakable" world record by the man himself. speaking of zelezny's 98.48m, people talk on here all the time about which throwing record will never be broken and the javelin is rarely mentioned. i dont see anyone throwing even close to that far again.

published at Aug 23rd 2008 10:35pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hammerboy

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120297625964


31 Copies of The Thrower journal dating from late 80's till mid 90's. Produced by former GB Olympic coach Max Jones (who invented the quad test) they are jam packed with articles and reports on all throwing events and strength and conditioning training. Also included are 2 copies of Circle magazine and 1 copy of the US throws journal LSTJ. These are very rare and hard to find athletics literature that are must reading for any serious athletes and coaches.

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published at Aug 23rd 2008 11:16pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Mr.Incredible

I agree with everything that Viking stated earlier, but I also agree tht Hoffa and Nelson would not even get to the finals of the Olympic trials if they were gliders. I think that Nelson finds a way to get evey possible thing from his body to throw as far as he does.

But looking back at this past season, I feel that our shotputters were all at their peak in late February and early March right before indoor Nationals. I remember when Nelson hit his big throw at the Tyson Invitational, that he was still doing his heavy lifting. It was the same at the NCAA level too. At that time of the year we had at least the top 5 throwers in the world

So maybe training and competing longer during the year is not the answer. Maybe it would be a good idea for our elite throwers to scrap the indoor season in Olympic years and not start doing any hard throwing till April or May. especially when you are over 30, the body can't take that long competitive year.

published at Aug 23rd 2008 11:43pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

-Udo Beyer performed well under his PR at countless WC's and OG's.

-I believe I heard Viking say that Timmerman was known as a choke artist before his win in '88.

-Andrei was 7' below his PR in '88.

-Did Feurbach throw anything above 70' in a major international competition?

-Miknehvich threw 22m and lost a meter 10 days later at the olympics.

-Randy Matson's Olympic best is about 6' less than his PR

-Peter Sack was over a meter below his PR at the games.

-Michael Carter was about a meter below his PR at the games in 1984.

-Machura was 2m off his PR in the 88 olympics.

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published at Aug 24th 2008 12:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

-Beyer,Andrei,Timmernamm,Matson have two things in common...guess which two.

-Timmermann lost to a glider in 83,and 4 gliders in 87.
-Andrei was injured in 88
-Sack is a spinner
-Carter hardly lost 50cm from his PB in 84 but still beat Laut who had thrown 22.02,a bigger PR than his.

-Machura's PR is 21.92 and threw 20.57 in 88.
Tafralis had a 21.98 PR and threw 20.16.
Doehring didn't do as well either.


Last but not least...you forget 50% of the event...

-Where are the women spinners ???

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published at Aug 24th 2008 12:24am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

In the 15 years from 1979-1993, Mike Stulce was the only American glider ranked tops in the world when he was #1 in 1992. He was also the only American glider to be ranked in the top 3 during that span!!!!

In the 15 years from 1994-2007, an American spinner was ranked #1 14 times.

So in the 15 years before the spin was used widespread, American gliders were ranked #1 in the world 7% of the time. In the 15 or so years since the spin caught hold, American spinners have been #1 in the world 93% of the time.

In the 4 olympics and 3 WC's Americans competed at from '76-'93, American gliders won 1 gold, a bronze and a silver. At the same # of competitions since, spinners won 3 gold, 5 silver and 2 bronze!!!!! And thats not even counting 3 additional world championship golds from Godina, Nelson and Hoffa!

Americans werent dominating the medal stand in the 70's and 80's with the glide...we were actually getting our asses handed to us.

And as for the "consistency/pressure" issue, from 2000-2007 Adam Nelson averaged 21.37/70' at WC's and OG's. Thats as consistent as anyone has ever been in this sport!!!

Had he not been hurt the Americans likely would have gotten 2 medals, including a possible gold and we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place.

The problem is not with the spinners its that the American season doesnt set them up for success at the games. The #4 and #5 finishers at these olympics threw PR's with the spin.

And as I stated in my previous post, there are many, many instances of 22-23m gliders who threw poorly at big meets. The glides "consistency" is grossly overstated. Mikhnevich, for example threw poorly and didnt medal at the 2004 OG's and 2005 World Championship. He just barely threw 21m and medaled a week after throwing 22m...but I thought the glide was consistent?????????

Another problem is the small but vocal group of glide apologists who eagerly wait for a spinner to have a bad meet so they can post nonsense on message boards.


KK

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published at Aug 24th 2008 12:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Thanks for coreccting me, Machura was only 1.25m off his PR, it was another glider, Smirnov, who was 2m off his PR at the '88 Games.

Godina won in '95 and '97 on "off" days.

As did Barnes in '96.

Nelson was 2-3' below his PR when he won the WC's in '05.

"Andrei was injured in '88"??? I don't care. Godina was injured in '05 and Nelson was injured this year. Cantwell was injured at the US championships last year.

Should we just pretend they all threw 22.30m????

This discussion isnt about women putters, its about male spinners.

Having Fun.....
Kemeny

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published at Aug 24th 2008 12:42am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from 70footer

I heard one of the announcers refer to the fact that ONLY 4 athletes had made the finals for the USA men in the field events....our 3 shotputters and 1 pole vaulter. and the only field event medal went to our own CHRISTIAN CANTWELL. so a little extra congratulations for Christian inlight of this recap.

mens discus, hammer, javelin, long jump, high jump, triple jump...no USA mens athletes made the final and no medals in any of those events...that has got to be a first ....

published at Aug 24th 2008 12:44am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/