Quote from Norm Balke
Maybe they could 85' if they wanted to. It is evident that they don't want to throw the weight.
Virtually every US HS has the shot, it is the easiest for a beginner to do, it is no wonder we dominate in that event.
How many HSers have the opportunity to throw the hammer? Is it even 1% of the number that have the opportunity to throw the shot?
It seems to be a numbers game with the hammer (and the jav for that matter).
Nike, Reebok,etc. are not going to "throw" any sort of major money at throwing events. There is no profit in them. Regular folks are not going to go out and buy throwing shoes or make discus bags in to purses.
published at Jul 31st 2008 3:47am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from ironman
Tiffin, don't know you but do know that pound for pound Carey Ryan was one of the best collegiate hammer throwers ever....I believe around 223' at a body weight of 198lb with pancakes from IHop!!!
The late placing right foot problem is definitely an issue for most people who have thrown a lot of discus. In the hammer your left side is the turning axis but your center of gravity should be between your legs, i.e., centered....weight equally distributed on both legs.
This whole thing people hear about lifting up with the hammer at 90 or 120 is often misinterpreted. It does not mean you pick your foot up in the air at that point and then take a long step around the left leg. Then, you have a very long single support with a heavy object on a wire pulling your around quickly with one leg in the air.
This is probably what FSU thrower is experiencing....that loads up the left side heavy....making you come down hard, bent over and late with the right...which is all to say you have very little "power position" or acceleration path for the ball going into the next turn.
You have to "feel" and be "active" with the right foot/leg in the hammer. Some cues: 1) let the ball pull you into the turn (don't lead with the left shoulder, hip, leg, etc. 2) actively grind the ball of your right foot into the ground and turn you right knee into your left as you are turning...this makes your hips turn quickly to the sector, 3) on your left foot heel/toe turn....you have to anticipate the ball of the left foot touching down and be ready to "attack" like Carey said with hip flexors/thigh stepping toward the ball.
It's atiming and feel thing. You want to aim for getting that right foot down somewhere close to the left sector line which then (assuming the ball is in a triangle with your shoulders)will give you a nice long acceleration path back to zero and start of next turn.
published at Jul 31st 2008 4:45am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
20.000 usd is a fortune to a person from Belarus,if an American needs that money,then multiply it by 100 and you'll see how much a Belarusian needs it.
The difference is that Mikhnevich is willing to sacrifice those money for an Olympic gold.
You have to want it at ALL costs.
published at Jul 31st 2008 5:11am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Don Babbitt
You are exactly right, but you are supporting my position (Belarus will pay out $100,000 per athlete per gold medal, (at least they used to), and the US pays 0). This is what I mean by government support. However, I can think of no better way to get ready for an Olympic competition than to go out and solidly beat you competition three times (and make $20,000 USD) in the weeks leading up to the competition to give them something to think about. Traveling for a week and throwing against the other potential medalists shouldn't be bad for Mikhnevich's training. How could that be? The London and Stockholm meets are preparation for the Americans for the Games, they do not need the money either. I just don't see how NOT competing on the road against major competition is they way to prepare for a major competition that is about 7 times zones away from your home base. I see staying at home as a negative in terms of preparation all things considered.
published at Jul 31st 2008 5:25am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from MAC
As you know, Komar, Harju and Bilinog had less than stellar seasons prior to their respective Olympic Games. They were not anyone's favorite to win. Peaking and paying the price involved has historically had it's great reward i.e. to be at one's absolute best on the day. These games will be very interesting from that perspective.
published at Jul 31st 2008 5:27am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from CoachW
The more I hear from the Russian school of thought the more my view on hammer "technique" changes to a more simpler analysis. It seems to me that unlike the shot, discus, jav where the thrower gets into a position adn then applies force the hammer thrower applies forces and then gets into a position to be able to handle those forces. Therefore it is futile to mimick exact positions seen in top performers unless you are throwing that far and are built the same way with the same strengths and weaknesses. The recent discussion on who has the best technique in North America is a prime example of this. Technique that you see is a reflection of how that person moves the ball, how fast the ball is moving (also how hard it is pulling on them), how they are built (Deal, long torso, short legs or Nikulin, short torso, long legs, Tamm-tall, Litvinov-short), and their strengths and weaknesses. Its a useless discussion really. That is why all you hear from Sedych/Bondarchuk is poosh ball because you have to start there first and then everything else follows. If you are pushing a hammer explosively and fast to the left you will have to lean back to counter the pull. That lean back combined with rotating to the left results in a heel turn. A toe turn can be achieved only if the thrower purposely holds back, but I doubt anyone can do 3 heel turns and then a toe turn and hold a counter. Guys in lab coats didnt figure it out-its athletic evolution. The biggest problem I see with college guys learning the hammer is that they insist on throwing the 16 and purposely slow the ball down to get things "right" or work on technique. When you slow things down you can do almost anything, like keep your right foot down way past 90. But that results in bending forward at the waist to make it work. But why, when the point is to go fast. Push the ball explosively. If you cant lighten up the ball or shorten the wire. Make it go far. And by far I mean really far 70m+ maybe even 80m. You'll learn a lot about technique doing that. Slowly move up in weight and yes, it will be a slow process but if you want success in 6-8 weeks go to powerlifting and focus on your bench/squat. This is throwing and it takes years to do it "right." Make your hammers go far, train explosively, adn do this for 10-20years.
And yes, it is a slow day.
published at Jul 31st 2008 5:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Norm Balke
Small but excellent point made there. Most throwers in the US have come from throwers in other events, shot and discus. In the minimal time I have spent coaching and learning about the hammer, you find you have to un-learn a lot of things. In rotational events, weight on the left, weight on the left. So when they pick up a hammer, they shift to the left! You want a relatively wide leg in the rotational events, but now it's knees together! In fact, knees together is contrary to the vast majority of the athletics motions in their other sports!
published at Jul 31st 2008 5:44am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from ironman
Well, yeah I agree with a lot of what Scott is saying, but unfortunately most beginning to intermediate throwers often interpret that to mean trying to accelerate the ball into the turn by pushing hard with the right hand into the entry.
If you do that, you compound the problems FSU Thrower experiences. Accelerating the ball from the "catch", power position, or whatever term you use and countering the ball throughout the throw is a whole different deal.
Norm, to teach my really good discus throwers/beginning hammer throwers not to lift up the right super early....I put 20,25, 35, 44 lb throwing weight on a 3 ft. chain. I tell them....you are either going to figure this out or bring knee pads to the next practice to break your falls. Most get it by 25lb, my huge (6'4" 370lb) shotputter luckily got it on his last attempt with the 35lb LOL
The really, really good discus and rotation shot guys struggle the most. Their brain says 1) if I ame throwing something 4x as heavy as a discus or 2) something as heavy but 3 ft away from me....then I really better pick up that right foot early. Of course, that is "right thinking" for a rotational shot and discus where you have to load up the left for a good linear drive and angular momentum into the middle of the ring.
Norm....you got arthritis!!?? What happened to "post daily, post often mantra".
published at Jul 31st 2008 6:02am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Don Babbitt
I don't know if I will be in Las Vegas this year. I am really trying to cut down on the travel in the "offseason", and a trip to the HP Summit may may be off the list this year. However, I may present at the Throws Summit at the beginning of January 2009 at Disneyland, for I am supposed to be in Los Angeles at that time visiting family.
published at Jul 31st 2008 6:41am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
"Traveling for a week and throwing against the other potential medalists shouldn't be bad for Mikhnevich's training. How could that be? The London and Stockholm meets are preparation for the Americans for the Games, they do not need the money either. I just don't see how NOT competing on the road against major competition is they way to prepare for a major competition that is about 7 times zones away from your home base."
It's reason enough to have been used as an excuse by former US shotputters for the drop of their performances in the past.
After all is said and done,at least this time i'd like not to see subpar performances blamed on the " long trips ,doing meet after meet" etc.
A choice is a choice.
As for the economic good and bad sides,this works both ways...since the US shotputters should only go to the Olympics to get sponsors,they'll get more or less the same money from the Olympics performance.
A Belarussian if injured and out of the final will get 0 for his performance and will have no sponsors.How about the Americans ?
As a different point of view,i'd say that some prefer to be paid in advance as Olympic hopefulls for meets before the Olympics and others prefer to be paid as Olympic gold winners after the Olympics.
I'd be willing to bet that in 2005 Bilonog made more money per meet than Hoffa,right ?
Again,a choice is a choice.
published at Jul 31st 2008 6:44am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from 70footer
what is the schedule for the shot put, discus, and hammer in BEIJING? and is anyone going that can give us the up to the minute reports????
published at Jul 31st 2008 7:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from jayess
I don't know how this formatting is going to look, but it's all there. I assume the times are local, so you'll have to make the adjustment. It looks like you can subscribe for webcasts at http://www.nbcolympics.com
Day 7 Friday:(15/8)
Session AT01 Start: 09:00 End: 13:25 National Stadium
09:05-10:05 Men's Shot Put Qualifying Round - Group A/B
10:40-11:40 Men's Hammer Throw Qualifying Round - Group A
12:10-13:10 Men's Hammer Throw Qualifying Round - Group B
19:55-20:45 Women's Discus Throw Qualifying Round - Group A
21:00-22:10 Men's Shot Put Final
21:20-22:10 Women's Discus Throw Qualifying Round - Group B
Day 8 Saturday:(16/8)
Session AT03 Start: 09:00 End: 13:10 National Stadium
09:10-10:10 Women's Shot Put Qualifying Round - Group A/B
10:40-11:35 Men's Discus Throw Qualifying Round - Group A
21:20-22:30 Women's Shot Put Final
Day 9 Sunday:(17/8)
Session AT05 Start: 07:30 End: 11:20 National Stadium
19:10-20:40 Men's Hammer Throw Final
Day 10 Monday:(18/8)
Session AT07 Start: 09:00 End: 11:58 National Stadium
09:10-10:20 Women's Hammer Throw Qualifying Round - Group A
10:40-11:50 Women's Hammer Throw Qualifying Round - Group B
19:00-20:20 Women's Discus Throw Final
Day 11 Tuesday:(19/8)
Session AT09 Start: 09:00 End: 11:30 National Stadium
09:00-10:00 Women's Javelin Throw Qualifying Round - Group A
10:30-11:30 Women's Javelin Throw Qualifying Round - Group B
21:00-22:30 Men's Discus Throw Final
Day 12 Wednesday:(20/8)
Session AT11 Start: 19:00 End: 23:10 National Stadium
19:20-20:40 Women's Hammer Throw Final
Day 13 Thursday:(21/8)
Session AT12 Start: 09:00 End: 13:16 National Stadium
09:10-10:15 Men's Javelin Throw Qualifying Round - Group A
10:40-11:45 Men's Javelin Throw Qualifying Round - Group B
19:20-20:40 Women's Javelin Throw Final
Day 15 Saturday:(23/8)
Session AT16 Start: 19:00 End: 21:17 National Stadium
19:00-20:30 Men's Javelin Throw Final
published at Jul 31st 2008 7:29am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Barley
C. Ryan's post is the best couple sentences of hammer advice I have seen on The Ring in while (With Ironman's response). Personally I spent 3 years stuck at 57m. I recieved similar advice from Lance Deal. Waiting longer to pick up my right leg, and focusing on using the hip to step to 180 quickly moved me out to 62m. Very wise words from Mr. Ryan.
published at Jul 31st 2008 7:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from moose
I just downloaded these.
All times are local. Beijing is 14 hours ahead of Mountain Time.
Friday August 15th
09:05-10:05 Men's Shot Put Qualifying A/B
10:40-11:40 Men's Hammer Qualifying A
12:10-13:10 Men's Hammer Qualifying B
19:55-20:45 Women's Discus Qualifying A
21:00-22:10 Men's Shot Put Final
21:20-22:10 Women's Discus Qualifying B
Saturday August 16th
09:10-10:10 Women's Shot Put Qualifying A/B
10:40-11:35 Men's Discus Qualifying A
12:05-13:10 Men's Discus Qualifying B
21:20-22:30 Women's Shot Put Final
Sunday August 17th
19:10-20:40 Men's Hammer Final
Monday August 18th
09:10-10:20 Women's Hammer Qualifying A
10:40-11:50 Women's Hammer Qualifying B
19:00-20:20 Women's Discus Final
Tuesday August 19th
21:00-22:30 Men's Discus Final
Wednesday August 20th
19:20-20:40 Women's Hammer Final
It seems that the organizers have a break between 12:00 and 19:00 every day. It works out so that there are no events between 10pm and 5am here in Alberta. I like it!
PS Does anybody know when the flight lists are published?
published at Jul 31st 2008 7:43am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from moose
jayess, you beat me to it!
I read today that in order to view the streaming video from the nbc website, you MUST have Vista. The streaming video program (I don't remember the name, silver something?) is not compatible with Windows XP, Mac OS, or any Linux distros.
Anybody know of any other streaming videos, free or pay?
published at Jul 31st 2008 7:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from CoachW
"Pushing the Hammer": Personally I dont like the phrase, but it seems to be part of the vernacular in the US. I like to say "throw" the ball into the turn as their more of a acceleration hint there. And yes, its more than the right hand - its the entire right side. I gotcha boss!
As far as people bringing movements from the discus into the hammer: Again, if its moving fast, or in ironman's example, its a very heavy weight you cant bring in incorrect movements or you are on your can.
Carey Ryan's comment:
I've heard people (I used to be one of them) use Sedych's early takeoff as reason for purposely lifting the right foot earlier and earlier. I've also heard that Sedych tries to keep his foot down as long as possible, WHILE TRYING TO ACCELERATE THE BALL. The result is that the foot is lifted off the ground so then the thrower reacts by stepping quickly. There is a difference between what you see and what the thrower is trying to do which leads me back to what I was stating earlier that you cant simply mimic positions that you see others use like you can in the shot-disc-javelin. What is the thrower trying to do to the hammer? Its really simple. In the recent years I have really tried to get out of the way of my athletes and give them simple guidance. You can over-analyze and over-explain the hammer and paralize your athletes and you end up with pretty looking hammer throwers who cant throw worth a lick. The best technique is the one that allows for longer throws. Carey's correct, if you are trying to accelerate the ball the foot will get lifted off the ground unless you do something to prevent that. Keep it simple and see what happens.
published at Jul 31st 2008 7:47am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from C. Ryan
For what its worth the overall points you make in your post sound good to me, and it seems like you are really trying to work through the technique.
I think if anything the disconnect between our statements would be that there is a difference between what we see when we look at film, and what is actually being attempted (or felt) in the ring. Trying your best to keep your foot on the ground as long as possible doesn't mean it WILL stay on the ground. You'll have to step (or possible stitches in the face). But if you artificially pick it up just because thats where the guys on film do it, you can't get to the root of what you can do.
Its probably a chicken and the egg sort of thing, but I think you have to break the throw down in the way you have done to explore it, but then after awhile, you want to devolve it into more "global" (not sure what word to use) movements and feelings. I think this is important because like Scott Weiser suggested you can get paralysis by analysis. You don't want your athletes bringing a mental protractor and ruler to track meets.
I had a chance to talk to Lance Deal once where he discussed alot of his main ideas (that I know of): balance, timing, rhythm, the pendulum, etc. And then he said "You know, some people forget that you have to just haul ass sometimes". We set things up in the winds and entry etc, and that probably determines what you can potentially get out of yourself in that throw. But the last two turns of the throw should be pretty animalistic. At the end of the day the best animal is going to throw farthest. That's why an A.G. Kruger could attach me to the end of his hammer and throw the whole thing further than the competition. There is technique there, plus ten times the power.
What Scott Weiser wrote sounds really good, basically you want to put yourself in position to react the force. If I could add anything it would just be to look at where the ball is in relation to you. Pushing the ball concept has probably screwed up lots of US throwers. Try letting the ball pull you. Watch Murofushi. Get a pencil, tie a string to it, and tie a washer at the end of the string. Then go on YouTube and watch Murofushi clips for a couple of hours. Personally I know I never would have thrown really far, but I'm pretty sure I could have thrown alot further than I did - all I had to do was listen to what I was being told and stop dragging the ball. The maturity just wasn't there, and thats why throwers need more time after school to let things develop in their mind. Or, like Henning and some of our other talent if they get started earlier, maybe they can develop a little quicker. The best of the best take the hero's journey that's why it's so impressive to see throwers in the US who are doing great - you know they paid the price big time.
published at Jul 31st 2008 8:24am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/