Quote from Hunter
I'm in total agreement with w8coach. All thats been suggesting is a lowering or removal of the rim around the ring so:
1) spinners arent called for fouls when the officials arent in position to make such a call and
2)so a perceived advantage of using the rim to push off is no longer an issue.
For those that are clamoring that with this change you would lose the ability to compare throws from previous eras, how do you rationalize the following:
-greater technology in implements. I'm assuming the discs now have greater rim weight than they did in 1891.
-Differences in technique. Shuffle-glide-spin. How far would Ralph Rose, Udo Beyer, Randy Matson or Al Feurbach have thrown if they were spinners?
-Financial compensation. How far would Matson, Oerter or Long have thrown if they trained year round and throwing was their "job"?
-Speaking of rings, didnt rings used to be made of clay with throwers wearing cleats?
-Sectors have changed.
-Our training methods have advanced in the past 100 years.
The javelin itself has been changed. I guess that means we can't appreciate Zelezny, Lusis, Hohn or Petranoff
Rules and conditions change constantly.
published at Feb 29th 2008 12:12am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from tomsonite
In the javelin the specifications of the implement were changed. Now you can't compare a 90m throw with today's javelin vs. the old javelin, but so what?
Granted this change did not come about because of changing techniques, but a rule change was made and the javelin seemed to turn out OK.
However I will say that personally I wouldn't be in favor of a painted circle or shorter rim because then I believe it would be even harder to call fouls.
In the discus once I personally got screwed over because I was throwing from just a painted circle, and fouled the throw at the front by about half the width of my pinkie toe. The official measured it for me afterwards and it would have been a personal best. Had there been a rim there it would have stopped my foot and the throw would have been legal.
Yet I suppose making the rim shorter/flatter in the back and leaving it the height its always been in the front wouldn't really "screw" anyone, but as has been said before I don't know if that really would give spinners a huge advantage either.
published at Feb 29th 2008 12:19am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Tallman
So...if 110mm is the max size for a 4K shot, then how come a 113mm indoor shot is sold?
Same goes for men, 130 max size yet 137mm sold indoors.
Is the rule actually different for indoors and outdoors?
published at Feb 29th 2008 12:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Tallman
You can learn something new everyday...
from the 2008 NCAA Rule Book...
published at Feb 29th 2008 1:02am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from dsmith
Where are some good sites to order shoes. Just took a Head Track job at an inner-city school in Indy (Manual H.S.). Kids can't afford to spend big bucks on shoes (spikes and throws shoes). Do you guys have any suggestions? Thanks,
published at Feb 29th 2008 1:39am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Coach Mac
TO be perfectly honest with y'all....I enjoy about 90% of the Vikings comments as well. It baffles me WHY someone would write as someone other than WHO they really are but when you pretend to be an Olympic FInalist or WORLD CLASS coach too justify your own posts and accuse other s of being a liar....well I dont get paid enough to diagnose those issues ...grin
For long time readers of this forum WHEN someone posts something controversial it turns into " Oh yeah..how far did you throw " OR "WHO have you coached" and don't forget the CLASSIC line " My dad is tougher than yours" If you have too create an alias too somehow add some validity to what you're posting then see the FOSTERS URL below .
GREAT real-time case in point as related to the college throwers that I'm in care of yesterday:
DId you know that just a couple of years back we had an "Unknown Masked Shot Putter " entered at the Carson Adidas Meet ?
They were surprized to find out it was the Candy Man -Reese Hoffa who wanted to get some publicity /recognition for the sport in a humorus non-hurtful way ( the dwarf retriever is another story....LOL )
So VIKING...just say who you are and at least in the USA , as you can see by the postings on this board. WE will accept YOU for who you ARE !!!
Have a GREAT Day !
It was nice of FOSTERS BEER too stage this contest as part of our 12-Step Recovery Program ....grin :
published at Feb 29th 2008 2:06am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Coach Mac
I fogot to add the FULL disclosure part: when I went to the 3-part questionaire the reslut was Moto Cross Jumper.
I wasn't satisfied with that alias so I took it the second time and the results were much better : Mad Bomber ...!!!
Oh yeah- Robert Ian MacKay
published at Feb 29th 2008 2:11am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
I am in this forum for quite some time now and all of what i have said about me is the truth.You may be unable to place the pieces together,but i'm always straightforward and honest.When i saw i had to choose between being honest and saying my name i chose to be honest.
It seems that many people cannot handle the truth very well and this doesn't refer to any recent disagreements here.
Think that i'm free to talk about doping rules and how ridiculous they are.I'm telling the truth,not ? I wouldn't be able to do so with my name on.I wouldn't be able to say that for example the HGH test will be useless if used on Beijing only because most athletes enter the village already clean and ready to be tested ! Or that most athletes with knowledgeable teams behind them have already bypassed this problem...
I never wanted to make a big name for myself but what i said was real.You can have parents from different countries and live in a third,then switch to a fourth because of marriage or work.You can be in a final without being a very top name and a WR holder and you can have athletes that go to the Olympics without being the best coach ever.I never said all my athletes are throwers,for example,but all of them strength train...would that change your way of thinking a bit ?
In this digital world everything is more or less evident,don't you think i have thought it's easy to see my ip address from personal emails or from forums ? I thought it would mean nothing ,as it does mean nothing the fact that you saw from where i type these words (right now).It would not reveal a thing.Perhaps some athletes i see in meets but not even my athletes (i have no throwers here).
Many times debating you go to extremes,this was one more such time.Each and every person reading can see and judge for himself whether i choose to lie or not.I'm willing to tell the truth even if this isn't self serving,i hope you recognize this at least.
Did i go too far ? YES.I might have hurt some people and i'm sorry,but i merely exposed the obvious,i didn't make things up .
Respect isn't what i'm here for.Better coaches are out there and better athletes were out there and my nickname isn't for posing.If it irritates you , i can always change it.
But you can be sure that when i say something i mean it.
PS Coach Mac, i don't always understand you.For example most of your Alias contest 1 post and all of the 2 are chinese to me.I hope you don't think i'm a mad bomber or a (even worse) a moto cross jumper...
published at Feb 29th 2008 4:05am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from CoachW
I was thinking about something John Smith said the other day:
"I recently had a chance to speak to Dr. Arbiet and one of my questions was "what was considered good differential from standing throw to full throw for a glider. His answer was 1.25m-1.5m was elite level technique. I said you know thier are spinners getting 3-4 meters on thier standing throws in the US. His reply was then Americans do not know how to throw a stand. This is the major point of the debate."
Is it a simple process of developing a standing throw and then adding the glide to it? Is learning to throw hard from a glide different than throwing hard from a standing position? In which case would that change the training? Dr. Arbeit's comment that we dont know how to throw from a stand - does that matter? Isnt it more important to know how to throw from movement (either glide or spin)? Wouldnt that lead one to think the DDR training paradigm is flawed (emphasis on standing throws). Most of our spinners work the full movement rather than the standing throw (I think it was Andy Bloom who had no idea what he could throw from standing). I think the standing throw to glide/spin conversion is a good measuring stick, but should it govern the whole development scheme. IMO, no. Therefore, the glide still has potential because noone has really approached like that under current conditions (more efficient training methods, etc.). I kinda agree with Coach Smith that we should expect a better conversion in the glide, but noone is trying. The ones who seem to glide are still using the same paradigm? So, practically, what does this mean. More light or heavy shot training with full glides? What do y'all think?
published at Feb 29th 2008 4:35am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
Hoffa and Nelson have roughly the same PR's as Beyer and Gunthor.
If the Hoffa and Nelson "learned" how to perform a stand throw, does anyone actually think they would be standing 21-22+m like Beyer and Gunthor!? Because thats what is implied when people make comments like "spinners and gliders stands are different, so the conversions dont matter" or "Americans do not know how to throw a stand"
published at Feb 29th 2008 4:54am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Montana
What would you consider the differences in the stand throw with a thrower using the spin vs a thrower using and glide?
published at Feb 29th 2008 5:29am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hank Slam
Key element....THROW IT REALLY HARD !!!!! Lol !!!!!!
Ok my friend, do that and watch Al
Feuerbach's "Basic 70' Shotputting" video. The knees and left arm go at the same time. Ball doesn't move! Then once the flexed knees and left arm are lined up, time the left leg extension, left arm block, and push on the ball/right arm extension, all at the same time. This timing is critical! Reverse will follow naturaly. Watch the film of Al.
Good luck doing this with the Pleasanton Stone or Stone Mountain Stone!
Another idea for you....THROW it HARDER!!!!!
published at Feb 29th 2008 5:50am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
Although I understand the technical concept of conversion and the psycological importance of a big stand, I'm place more value on the stand a drill to tech the thrower how to proper re-accelerate the shot after the deceleration of being int the air moving from back to front. Traditionally gliders have been big and strong and able to over power the shot. Using the stand as a means to feel torque , seperation and the lt arm block are my main concern.
published at Feb 29th 2008 6:21am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from cownuttz
I wouldn't put it passed him. He was throwing line drives slipping off his hands at USA's and they were moving fast. Hey, 2 years ago he fouled that big 75.4 at outdoor USA's. You never know.
published at Feb 29th 2008 6:22am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from DemonThrower82
I would love it, if it was true!
btw: it was 75-9 at nationals two years ago. lol
But it's almost two feet further!
published at Feb 29th 2008 6:28am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from David Barron
I'll give it a shot. No, I mean a stone. Wait...
I actually usually do better with the Pleasanton stone than with the lighter ones. I think the extra weight forces me to separate and use the hips more. Food for thought "perhaps a crumb!?" (to quote Mac).
published at Feb 29th 2008 6:33am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from JROQ
3-5ft conv. for a great glider!?!
Maybe Beyer's "antiquated and sluggish" glide netted him a foot or 2 conversion.
I believe I read an article 20 yrs ago of an interview of Timmermann after the 88' Games. He said in his words 'I threw from the front 19.5m, and ended with 22.47m'. I'm not buying that Timmerman stood 21-22m during competitions and got a foot maybe 2 feet at best with his glide!!
I know that Brenner when he hit his AR of 73'10" had stood 64-65 feet. Thus he had great conversion for a glider of around 8-9ft on average.
I was present at a meet during Stulce's peak in throwing and witnessed him stand around 62-64ft during warmups...then throw 70 and inches during the competition.
What am I missing, or am I retarded ?!
In college, I stood threw just over 50ft and my best was 57 and change.
Now, of course gliders dont get 10-15ft like some great spinners of today and yester-year.
But what's with this (a great glider gets 3-5' conversion)?
I agree with some on this forum that the glide has been discounted way too much, especially in the States!
published at Feb 29th 2008 7:10am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from 70footer
ok...so 77' 6'' is that in a meet or in practice??? there is a BIG difference , alot of the best have done monster throws in practice , but only with time, patience, AND awards such as world and Olympic championships do they ever realise these kinds of throws in an actual meet and get crowned WORLD RECORDS.
a few years back alot of people were saying Kevin Toth was going to break the world record ,he had just gone over 74 feet , and sure enough had practice throws of 77 feet which I saw arriving at a throwing area apparently just after he had left ,...lots of divots out over the world record out to over 77 feet!!...BUT I really think that with about 90% certainty the world record is NOT just something you can do, becuase at that level lots of us CAN do , but only a very select few ever do...it has to be something that is earned by being a champion first , otherwise the pressure of it is just too much for others to take. Besides Terry Albritton most of the world record holders of the last 30 years were also world & Olympic champions first...meaning that Christian Cantwell has all the talent to throw as far as he wants to IF he first throws well, competes well and becomes champion when it really matters...only then will it be something that he will most likely do. and personally I can say that big throws in practice are really something that haunts you more than helps you , however learning how to compete is a blessing and always brings about PRs when they matter most. and that is my wish for him...only to compete well and win.
published at Feb 29th 2008 7:20am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/