Quote from PowerTrainer
Where do you coach for? I'm over at Verona H.S. Well, here is what happened with me. First off wrong college choice completely, I should have went somewhere to throw under an ex-big time thrower who knew how to train an elite thrower. Bet Blutreich would have been a great choice, and Ron Backes when he was at OHIO. I was doing the same stuff as kids I used to beat by 15-20 feet in h.s. were doing, as my now teammates. You can see how that could make my level drop. I threw my freshman year ONLY. I was at my college for 3 years and was only eligible the first year b/c of bad grades =-C. The fact that I only cared about putting shots and lifting/exercising contributed to that. I later transfered out of there, got my BA in Socio, Minor in Psych and now am working on my Masters in Exercise Science.
The problem I experienced was, I wouldn't call it burnout, but I guess shock/throwing depression? I was used to the good competition, newspaper headlines, being on TV shows and spectators at the h.s level..If you can remember at NJ the people watching us put was RIDICULOUS, get to college and it was like no one was there to watch or even cared about the sport anymore. That was hard to digest for me, b/c putting shot was my life. I used to love throwing in front of the crowds and people knowing who I was, etc...I loved the pressure and the competition, especially the pressure to perform when everyone was watching. I didn't see that from college. H.S. I was I guess you can say somewhat extrinsically motivated..but at the same time I was intrinsically motivated b/c I loved to throw.
I threw 59' some inches as an 18 yr old Frosh Indoors, but this is around what I hit in H.s with the 16. Maybe topped at 56/57 outdoors, on a downward spiral.. The program didn't tax me enough at all, I was well above that level already. Then my grades went and it was a struggle to do everything and I gave it up.
This talk about spinners and gliders is a good one for me. Maybe my brother and I are different then the rest? but, I used to get 9-11 feet from a good glide with the 12 lb ball and 8-9 feet with the 16. This is from a dynamic/fast glide. My speed as a glider was comparable to these spinners. That was never a problem for me with either weighted implement.
Burnout: After I left my original college I experienced burnout. After being in the spotlight and training hard for all those years takes a toll on you mentally, not so much physically for me. I started throwing as a 14 yr old frosh outdoor season, 44 feet the first time I ever touched the ball and made some big jumps b/c of that. I hear the Vena kid has been throwing since 3rd grade! I can see a burnout coming for him shortly. I saw him on YouTube and his form is very good, this is from years of doing it.
I actually got back into putting again. I have been doing the strongman/highland games events and I just got real strong with this stuff, I said to myself I am only 27 so why not give throwing another shot. I am surprised with my results thus far after maybe 4/5 weeks back in, once per week. GLIDING, as well...
Also, pertaining to someone saying spinners get 12-15 feet from a spin and gliders only getting 3-5 feet sounds ridiculous. The stand throw for a spinner is meaningless, for a glider it is half their form. I have never seen a spinner do a legit stand throw, there is no reason to. Maybe a half spin would be a better indicator, but spinners I know could care less about a stand or a 1/2 spin. The stand throw for a glider is directly linked to the glide.
Talk to you soon.
published at Feb 1st 2008 1:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from rlasorsa
John Smith is being inducted into the Indiana Association of Track and Cross Country Coaches Hall of Fame this weekend.
Congratulations to John - a well deserved honor.
published at Feb 1st 2008 1:13am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from 70footer
so if we know that the best spinners have a huge conversion from front to back...10 feet at least is what seprates the contenders from the pretenders...is this a fact in the glide as well? I know I saw Brenner go 65 from the front and then went 70 from the back....what did Carter do on his fateful day in HS? what did Timmerman get? Andrei, etc? I know I heard about Beyer getting a 70 foot front and only 71 in the meet...
this must also be true in the hammer and the discus...is that true Bill? doesn't the best hammer thrower get the most conversion from the back of the ring , and the same in the discus?
published at Feb 1st 2008 1:36am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Hunter
I agree that a lot of spinners dont put as much stock in the stand (compared to gliders) and as a result boast inaccurate stand to full differentials.
That being said most spinners put a lot of stake in their half turns and as a general rule of thumb, most good spinners half turn at least 5-6' less than they spin. And they likely half turn about 5' farther than they would throw a picture perfect stand.
So next time you hear a spinner gets a 16' stand to full differential, its probably "only" 13'-14'...still better than the glide.
If the glide consistently gave guys 12'-14' on their stands, guys like Miknevich would be throwing 78'...
published at Feb 1st 2008 1:58am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Old Timer
The poster named "shotputter" back in 2000-2001 was very adament that throwing far in the glide required the strength gained from long standing throws with the heavy shots.
The discussions were very animated with one side saying there should be a big conversion going from the stand to the glide, but "shotputter" maintained that to throw >73 ft in the glide required standing throws >69 ft.
It was also pointed out that the type of training (both lifting and throwing heavy) that led to 70ft stand throws was VERY hard on the body and eventually broke people.
At the end "shotputter" claimed to be Ulf Timmerman and left the Ring. Several people believed (me included) that Ulf was a part of The Ring for a time.
It is very possible that both shotputter and John Smith are right. It does take that kind of training and strength to throw far with the glide. Also, it is likely that very few people can do that without "supplementation".
By the way, Ulf described with some detail the DDR approach to hormonal supplementation and never claimed he did not use it. It was National policy in the DDR. I hesitate to repeat this now because he was a great thrower and competitor.
I appreciate Johns posts and the palpable honesty he reveals. What happened then is what happened. I appreciate that we may be able to learn how to throw clean from what we learn about how people threw dirty.
published at Feb 1st 2008 2:02am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from LetItRip
Thanks for the insight.. I must say i can still remember a saturday morning many moons ago i was watching ABC Sports and they have this kid pulling a car with chains in the streets!!! Im like screaming for my brother to check this out! i was blown away! LOL
glad to hear your back throwing..
it seems highland is perfect for you! good luck..
Im not far from your old stomping ground.. just over that bayonne bridge in the midle of the Dump Farrell HS.. though with work 7 travel, im not getting to spend much time with them this year and the kids are suffering. I got to light a match under their asses today!!
well maybe we can hook up one day and BS..
PS: Hows Glenn ? And the youngest
published at Feb 1st 2008 2:15am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from PowerTrainer
When you say people get 11-18 feet from a spin I don't think this is a fair analysis. I can just go out and half(ass), for a lack of a better word, a stand throw and hit 20 feet and glide to a 70, so does that mean I got 50 feet from a glide? I doubt the strength/speed and twitch of Greg Tafralis only led to a 53 foot stand. There is no way he was 3 or 4 feet beyond what I stand threw. That guy has tremendous power! He is a Tank. I can see him at 60 ish at least with a good solid legit stand.
The issue of stands to form is a tricky and deceptive one, in my view. How can you judge a stand throw? Do we look at where the athlete hits the middle of the circle from the back each time, avg. out where they are biomechanically, and have them stand throw from that position every time and dub this as "their" own individual stand throw? That would be the proper/legit way to analyze it. This will truly show what they get from their form.
I used to go in, touch my left knee to the circle, so my right leg was parallel to the ground, I'm a righty, like a lunge and come out of a stand like that to pop 53 feet, I called them power stands. Does that correlate to how you are after you hit the middle of the circle after a glide? Absolutely not! No ones leg is 90' to the ground after a glide, and if you can do that keeping the ball moving 45' through the entire form, somehow, you will uncork some monsters. If I just "arm put" the ball as my stand, no legs, it will not go that far.. then if I glide and gain 20 feet is that how much I gain from my glide?? The comparison of stand to form is WAY too vague. Adam Nelson has a spin that no one has ever done before or even can do, it's his own thing and is amazing for me to watch his left leg action. Can he get into a legit stand throw position that will really show what he gets from back to middle? I doubt it. His snap from the form leads to extra torque that he could never attain by just doing a stand. Glider stands are more black and white, but still not really.
I think to really compare a stand to a form will take machines and biomechanical analysis that no one here really wants to get into. Maybe if this were a money sport like FUZBALL or Baseball we would have this kind of technology and a billion and one statistics, HAHA.
Also, this issue of drugs keeps coming up with Gliders. Man, how many top performers, Gliders AND SPINNERS alike were busted for some kind of performance enhancer? This issue should have no bearing on the discussion at hand. But to be a good glider you have to be juiced, some big thrower said recently. Not to be a spinner?? Then why were/are so many spinners caught with performance enhancing drugs as well???
I can't believe as a throwing community this is even talked about still. This is the only sport I hear this going on, now with baseball too. What about football? Do people say Jerome Bettis is juiced that's why he is good or anyone for that matter? I never hear ANYONE talk about that, especially in a sport where that stuff is taken like multi vitamins. Coaches, athletes, fans, NO ONE mentions juice with football. But as throwers, if we are good we are juiced. It's bogus and sickening to still hear this in today's liberal society.
published at Feb 1st 2008 2:16am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Smith
Big conversions are also the main emphasize in my practices every day. It would be interesting to hear Art's point of view on someone like Timmerman who got such a low Conversion.
published at Feb 1st 2008 2:19am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from PowerTrainer
Udo was as slow as a OX, if not slower, no wonder he got only a foot. What did Feurbach get, or George Woods & Allesandro from a Dynamic Glide? It's like saying Oldfield got nothing from his glide. He had the most HORRENDOUS glide ever! Glided off of his toe, hopped to the middle, wide open, and one more thing I am forgetting that I saw from his glide, if you want to call it that. I can't believe Timmerman only got that little off a glide. He was so fast and kept 45' for the duration from beginning to end. I wonder what Mike Carter got from his form, since people think he was SOO WEAK. Then this must mean he got tremendous distance from his glide, b/c stands are all about strength, correct, and he was lacking in that department supposedly. What about Mike Stulce stand to glide??
published at Feb 1st 2008 2:33am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
...this will always be an issue here because it's obvious that the spinners don't perform a standing throw the same way the gliders do,nor do they emphasize it as much,so it's natural for them to have a higher conversion.
The final fact is that no matter how far an athlete can throw from the stand ,you can never predict the full spin/glide performance.
What seems to be the rule is that no matter if a shotputter can throw 22m from the stand like Beyer or 16m like Tafralis, the human limit for a full throw is a bit over 23m no ifs and buts about it.
23 and change is the limit for a full throw and this has been shown again and again from thousands of athletes.
Now,the human limit for the standing throw has been explored by far lesser shotputters and this is why there are such big differences there.But from those that have tried to find out,it seems that 22 and change is the limit there.
If you don't try to find the limit,how is it possible to establish a given conversion rate between a movement you only do as a warmup and a movement that is your one and only goal ?
Once again,conversion tables have to step on stable suppositions without which seem to be nothing but worthless...
published at Feb 1st 2008 2:37am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
First of all lets all put away our swords. My involveement in this thread has been to speak for the technical aspect of the throw, bolstered by the strength aspect. We are sharing some common thread here but may be approaching it in a different way. Whatever the chosen course, I think is it fruitless for any of us to speak of an era or a group of throwers from and,"Holyer than Thou" pulpit.I totally appreciate the numbers you present to us through your extensive research. It gives more perspective to our craft. We must remember that though the nembers give us feedback, they are not the end all. I would like to classify my assertions on stregth to the pressing exercises. These are the exercises I believe interfere with the feel of the implement when performed in excess. I was looking at most of the twenty of so shot put and discus throwers of all time. I put in rank order thier throwing and lifting pr's I was given. The information may not be esact as I myself did not collect it but have spoken directly to some athletes about lifting pr's In the discus, with the exception of Alekna, as the rank of a throwers bench press increased his rank of his pr throw decreased. Alekna has the #2 bp 529 and the #2 throw of 73.88. He is the exception to the trend and not the rule. John Powell has the #10 BP and the #4 throw. I john's case he told me a couple weeks after he threw his pr in 84 , I threw 226 with a 450 bp and I threw 233 with a 290 bp." Take into consideration that strength pr did not all come in the same year of lifting pr's. Rome#1 bp and #18 throw. The trend from this not infalable research seems to indicate that bigger bench presses are not condusive to longer discus throws. The same trend is evident in the shot but not nearly as dramatic as in the discus. As for the your comment on the assertion that a the throwers of the past already had strength taken care of. Wilkins pr bp 440 Powell 450 (past throwers, Current throwersAlekna 529 , Rome 545. Shot put Feuerbach bp 418, Oldfield 495 Current Hoffa 520, Cantwell 622. Beyer (past) bp 720 this is an obvious in-human feet of strength, Akins 524, Very upa nd down and thechnical probs plagued him constantly. I know you may take this defensively, but how did you make this assertion? The data I have doesn't support it.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I have been of the belief of one side of the debate and you have taken the other. Ultimately our goal is the same, put the best tech on the strongest, most athletic body possible. I am erring to the tech side more than you. For you to take a defensive stance here and look at the rest of our thoughts as attacks suggests that you feel your stance is the only stance. If I'm wrong in the long run, I will make th change necessary to help those I'm in contact with. I would hope you would be secure enough to do the same.
published at Feb 1st 2008 2:48am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from CoachW
Speaking from a more practical perspective. I dont have the luxury of getting the ideal athlete. I take what I get and try to make the most of it. Size sometimes lends itself to a particular technique and sometimes it doesnt. You have to marry the body size with the qualities of the athlete and also their movement abilities. All 3 factors dictate what will be best for the athlete given that they even have any interest in throwing far. So factors most important:
physical ability (power, strength, etc.)
movement ability (coordination, skill, blah, blah, blah)
Now what if you got a big, very strong but not fast/coordinated individual who has a high interest in throwing. To me what John Smith has been posting is very valuable in understandin how to coach this person. Beyer and Timmerman were both great athletes with very different qualities. Both different techniques but still doing a few very importnat things the same. If the spin was SO great more decathletes would be doing it. The glide is simple and yet still very effective for a specific population of people who simply want to throw far. Who cares about the ideal because there is no ideal. Once you start putting people in boxes someone comes along and blows your mind - like Fuerbach (size) or Oldfield (spin) or now with Cantwell (height) or Hoffa (consistency). You are what you are and the more a coach understands about different techniques and human performance the better it is for the athlete. Lets help each other understand these events better cuz I'm tired of seeing US throwers getting their butts kicked in everything except the shot put.
Love to all
published at Feb 1st 2008 4:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from tomsonite
In John Smith's post about the 5 shot putters, he said that one had a contract to cover the expenses of his drugs at $15,000?
John I know you prefer to have these throwers remain anonymous but could you give us a general idea to a time frame when that was? If it was in the 80's, are steroids today be more expensive?
And the point I'm getting to...as some of the lowest paid professional athletes in the world, can many throwers even afford steroids?
published at Feb 1st 2008 4:36am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Coach Rodney
That's really funny...your father inlaw was really off base, cause I didn't snatch back then, and he might have gotten me mixed up, Only Oldfield would do funny things like that, walking into a weight room and taking the weight and pushing above his head, and doing it cold, and still angry? Naw DL, I don't get mad anymore, only when someone walks across the throwing area with out looking, or they delay the shot because of the start of the 100m, or when I look outside and its there's a white-out and the wind is blowing 35-45 mph with 6 inches of snow on the ground!
published at Feb 1st 2008 6:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/