"The Ring" archive entries from Jan 31st 2008

These are the posts from "The Ring" archive on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/ from day Jan 31st 2008

Quote from Coach Rodney

Out here on the West Coast, the Frosh/Soph throw the 10 lbs. shot, and I forgot about the USATF junior wgts. (old age!) I think several years ago, I wrote on this great site about the different wgts of implements that are thrown. The girls/women have it easy, they throw the 4k shot-hammer/1k discus their whole career,(whoops, there goes the USATF for the young girls who will throw the 6lbs shot) while the Boys/Men have many different sizes/wgts. Recently someone posted about a throw with a 10 lbs instead of the 12 and that can happen alot. So when you have different wgts at a meet it can be tricky to say the least.

published at Jan 31st 2008 12:18am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Coach Rodney

Out here on the West Coast, the Frosh/Soph throw the 10 lbs. shot, and I forgot about the USATF junior wgts. (old age!) I think several years ago, I wrote on this great site about the different wgts of implements that are thrown. The girls/women have it easy, they throw the 4k shot-hammer/1k discus their whole career,(whoops, there goes the USATF for the young girls who will throw the 6lbs shot) while the Boys/Men have many different sizes/wgts. Recently someone posted about a throw with a 10 lbs instead of the 12 and that can happen alot. So when you have different wgts at a meet it can be tricky to say the least.

published at Jan 31st 2008 12:20am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from ephdisc

Brad- I just have a moment here, but take the idea of a

published at Jan 31st 2008 12:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from CoachW

If we were smart the 7th&8th graders would use the 4k, 9th&10th graders would use the 5k, and 11th&12th use the 6k. But then you would have to have 2 state meets and I can see how, logistically, that would be a nightmare. But for Junior Olympics we as a country should try to stay as close to the international weights for youth as we can. I dont know if that happens. Does it?

Scott

published at Jan 31st 2008 12:31am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Walt S

I think the issue is not whether the stronger athlete always wins, as we know this is not true. The issue is at what point an increase in strength in an individual athlete no longer helps that individual athlete throw farther. In my years of working with hs and now college athletes, I don't think I have ever had an athlete get to the level where an increase in strength would not have made them throw better. All other things being equal.

published at Jan 31st 2008 12:32am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from tomsonite

Does it really hold up that much better under pressure? Just because someone is strong does not mean they will be at 100% strength levels all the time. Not to mention there are other factors that can affect how strong you are on meet day...what you ate/drank a few days before, how much sleep you got, weather, dehydration, etc. On top of that in my own personal experience if I'm not 100% there mentally, my my strength is not there either, I just feel weak.

I've got no scientific studies to back that up, but on the other hand, I've heard no real evidence that strength holds up under pressure.

In fact, couldn't one make the argument that after years of technique development, and motor patterns become "automatic", so that a thrower can execute good technique without even thinking about it, that technique holds up under pressure? I realize there are lots of other factors going into this too but I'm just throwing it out there.

published at Jan 31st 2008 12:40am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from tomsonite

Why are there elite throwers today who have better weight room numbers than some world record holders (mens shot or hammer) that still haven't thrown as far?

published at Jan 31st 2008 12:43am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Tony Dziepak

I don't know if/when school systems or USATF youth could be converted to the IAAF specs, but it is more of an issue for the more proficient throwers whereas USATF JOs and high school is also all about participation. For the average participant who throws ~40' with the #12, the 6K is not an issue.

However, if high schools were to adapt metric weights, I think it might be good to base it on competition level: Varsity competition throws a 6K, JV: 5K, and freshman comp. throws a 4K. That way, the proficiency of the thrower (encompassing a combination of strength/developmental maturity and technical mastery) will generally match the weight of the shot. Officials will just have to get used to recording and certifying the weights of the implements used in each competition. For reference, in our state, 9th graders are eligible for all three levels (Frosh, JV, and Varsity); 10-11th grade eligible for V and JV, and 12th graders only eligible for Varsity competition. However, we don't have freshman-level competition or flights for track & field, but we might add them if they used a different weight. Otherwise, they can just do JV with a 5K weight, but certainly 4K for 8th graders, where we have an annual spring inter-middle-school track meet at the conclusion of their track & field PE module.

An issue with USATF youth program is also accessibility--meaning don't require too many different weight implements, so that it is easier to run the meet. I think decent turned iron shots are widely available now in all weights, so it would be easy to switch to a 3K-4K-5K-6K system for age groups U13, U15, U17, U20(junior), respectively.

published at Jan 31st 2008 1:07am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from bruinHntr

I love the four throw set up. You just go for it. All throws, no worries about making finals.
I think they do it for tv. It is quicker with no reshuffle midway through(which takes three officials)

published at Jan 31st 2008 1:34am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from John Smith

Good post. I will give examples of world class strength parameters. I will use four of my world class athletes and 2 European world class throwers.

The main four lifts in the weight room for most throwers is the back sqaut, clean, snatch and ballistic bench.

Athlete #1- Connie Price Smith

Squat- 35% of 4 lift total
Clean- 22% of 4 lift total
Snatch- 15% of 4 lift total
Bench- 25% of 4 lift total

Bodyweight to strenght ratio-6.2

Athlete #2- Dan Taylor

Sqaut-33%
Clean-22%
Snatch-16%
Bench-27%- his bench needs to be higher.

Bodyweight to strenght ratio- 6.01

Athlete#3 Dee-Dee Nathan 6577 hept

Squat- 36%
Clean- 22%
Snatch- 16%
Bench- 24%

Bodyweight to strenght ratio- 6.2
Dee-dee had a 52.9 shot, 21.11 LJ, 6.11/2 HJ, 13.00 H.

Athlete #4 Brittany Riley

Sqaut-39%
Clean- 21%
Snatch- 15%
Bench- 23%

Bodyweight to strenght ratio 4.87.

Athlete #4 Astrid Kumbernuss

Sqaut-34%
Clean-22%
Snatch-17%
Bench-25%

Bodyweight to strength ratio-7.97
This is the reason she was made a putter and not a discus thrower.

Athlete #6- Ulf Timmerman

Sqaut-35%
Clean-22%
Snatch-16%
Bench-26%

Bodyweight to Strength rato-8.5


As you can see that most all of these numbers are fairly close between these 6 athletes. The huge difference is the bodyweight to strength ratios which are much higher with Kumbernuss and Timmerman.

If any of these numbers are way out of whack like a female i have that has a bigger bench then a squat then you will have many technical problems. Also a common strength problem you see with most women is a big squat and a poor bench which also will cause all kinds of ring technical problems.

Also the glide shot takes the highest bodyweight to strenght ratio's, then the discus then the hammer.In todays climate this is why the spinners are rising and the gliders are falling becuase the former bodyweight to strenght ratio's of the past are no longer achieved.

Scott you made me think to much this morning.

John Smith

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published at Jan 31st 2008 1:51am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from tomsonite

I think they do it because its quicker and without the finals reshuffle, I doubt TV has anything to do with it...has there ever been a throws competition broadcast anywhere in the world where every single throw by every single thrower was shown? Ever?

published at Jan 31st 2008 1:51am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

In my final post on the issue, Tomsonite makes a solid point. About strength. I have never stated that strength is ultimately important, just that my belief is that tech is more imprtant than strength. If it weren't true , the strongest athletes to grace tthe sport would have all of the records and titles. That isn't the way history represents itself. Were Sylvester, Wilkins, Powell, Schult the biggest and the strongest when they held the world records? Is the same true for Woods, Feuerbach, and even Oldfield? Have big strong athletes ever held the records, yes.

published at Jan 31st 2008 1:52am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from John Smith

Actually my focus is on throwing since i lift less than almost any coach in the country.

I could put a huge list together but it will just make a lot of people angry.

What's irresposible is former throwers from the past preaching to throwers today how to throw in a climate they never threw in. Some of the throwers you use as examples would be un-competitive today. This is what i find irresponsible.

John Smith

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published at Jan 31st 2008 2:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Don Babbitt

I think the four throws option came from data that suggested that the best efforts in a six attempt competition came in Rounds, 1,2,3 & 6. Thus, the idea to eliminate rounds 4 & 5 yielded four throws straight through.

A long time ago I used to be opposed to the four throw comps, but then upon some introspection I realized I just wanted more throws for my throwers who were having a bad day to get a good mark.

Since then I have watched the flow of competitions closely and have come to the conclusion that when a thrower is having a good day you will usually see the following;

The 1st throw thrower: Gets really jacked up, very emotional, usually "wins" the warmups, hits a big one in the first throw, and then tries too hard after that and the results go down from there. Good strategy if you can pull off the big round throw and put the comp away, but high risk if the 1st round throw is not enough.

The last throw thrower: last one best one. Uses the last throw as a last chance for glory and is able to rise to the occasion. These throwers usually win a lot and are great competitors.

2nd Round thrower: very much like the first throw thrower, but they usually foul the first throw. Then they calm down, PR with a safety throw, and then try too hard after that.

3rd throw thrower: Has a great day PR's three times in a row, or build's up to a great throw in the 3rd. Looses rhythm while the officials take 20 minutes to reverse the order for the final.

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published at Jan 31st 2008 3:29am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from CoachW

I dont have very COMPLETE info especially on female throwers and javelin throwers but here are a few highlights.

Alekna
396 clean - 22.2%
264 snatch - 14.8%
594 squat - 33.3%
529 bench - 29.7%
6.23 ratio
I am sure the lifts are not timely but Smith's numbers seem to hold true for discus.

Hoffa
385 clean - 21.5%
286 snatch - 16%
600 squat - 33.5%
520 bench - 29%
6.18 ratio
Again dont crucify me for having wrong numbers or old info, but correct me if you have a more reliable source. Seems to hold true with heavy to the bench press (logical).

Sedych
352 - 25.4%
264 - 19.1%
528 - 38.1%
242 - 17.5%
6.23 ratio
Leave it to the hammer throwers to knock the numbers out of whack. Probably due to lack of bench press. Maybe different set of numbers for hammer guys.

Incomplete jav info, but I would like to see if it holds true for that event.

Scott Weiser

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published at Jan 31st 2008 3:58am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Coach Rodney

John Smith says,
"What's irresposible is former throwers from the past preaching to throwers today how to throw in a climate they never threw in. Some of the throwers you use as examples would be un-competitive today. This is what i find irresponsible."
This is a pretty bold statement. John Smith was around with the names that Mickey mentioned. Does he fall into that catagory too? I hear rumbles on this one !!! Wish I had all the tools today back when I threw ! Maybe I could have gained a meter or two or three or four.

published at Jan 31st 2008 4:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Bill Green

As a person from the earlier era reading this discussion, I have to say that I have found John Smith's perspective on this subject to be very important and one of the most interesting commentaries on The Ring. He matured during the earlier era as an athlete, watched his wife struggle to compete against Europeans and Eastern Europeans with a whole different system and approach, then lived through the great equalization of the playing field in the 1990's. His history on the front lines in both eras makes him uniquely qualified to comment.

We know that in all corners of the sports world there is an ongoing debate about how things are done today versus 20 and 30 years ago, the validity of records, and the as of recently the level of actual law (rather than rule) enforcement. This debate is endless and emotional, and everyone has a stake in it in one form or another.

I think John was just mistakenly not careful with his choice of words, as I have followed his message on this subject and think that his point is correct and important, particularly in this forum with younger athletes and coaches. The two eras cannot be compared, and the new generation needs to understand the realities involved in order to set their expectations and benchmarks. A different kind of thrower dominated in the prior era, different in terms of fitness, body type, technique and time necessary to mature.

We all older members of The Ring have friends, loyalties, opinions and histories. And frankly, some of us have memories that are a bit romantic given the current conditions in the sport and the mindset of the public. There is truth to the notion that the champions of the prior era would fare differntly today, there just is no set formula for pinning it down exactly. John has a great deal of data and has invested in trying to specify things with exactness, it's just that we'll never really know how the heroes of old would do today.

And for my part it doesnt matter. We competed then, they compete now, and you seek to win with the conditions and expectations at hand, against whoever they put in front of you.

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published at Jan 31st 2008 5:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

My intent is not to impugn another coaches work here. If John is attempting to put together the data possible, me need him to compare, not just the pr strength levels of athletes and their respective pr's in strength and throws, the strength pr's of these athletes in the years they threw their pr's, and the percent of the world record at the time of they threw their respective pr's. We can certainly see if there are any direct correlations and maybe uncover things we all could learn. If it is truly about not just being right in the debate, maybe some email traffic aroud the world woud give us the answers we all want.

published at Jan 31st 2008 6:02am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from ephdisc

What about the issue of changing technique in advanced athletes? If getting stronger is not the right focus, as some today have argued, then is it actually possible to significantly change technical elements of a thrower? In a study done on weightlifters at the OTC in CO, lifters were able to make changes in training, but under stress (competition), the reverted back to old technique. I

published at Jan 31st 2008 7:09am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/