Quote from Coach Mac
Between moving stuff and cleaning and avoiding fires I read this last night (make that morning...grin)
POSTED by Bert Sorin who has been seen lately wearing skirts ( but only on the weekends...LOL )
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 159 Posted: 10/25/07 at 10:28am |
We had 4 of the most well known strength coaches at a convention last year, with a round table style talk about their combined 100 years as professional strength coaches. Between them was about 4 Super Bowl Rings, 6 NBA Rings, 5 National Championship Rings, and a few National Records. When it was all boiled down, the collective concensus was
THESE ARE THE TWO MOST IMORTANT FACTORS IN POWER SPORTS:
1. Power (velocity x mass) produced with in the first .2 seconds
2. speed of deceleration and change of direction (reversability)
Basically, after that everything else is details. If you are not training for these components specifially in mind, you are giving away huge performances. period.
"Good and slow ain't good"
In the truest sense of a Brad Reid contest.... a copy of THROWN FREE -Wolfgang Schmidts book too the winner with the best answer :
1) Power =(velocity x mass) produced with in the first .2 seconds
Does this make measuring these TIME components and loads IMPORTANT ? WHY ?
2) speed of deceleration and change of direction (reversability)
HOW would you implement this into a training program specifically ?
GOOD LUCK - mac~
published at Oct 27th 2007 3:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from jayess
1)I'm not sure I understand the question, but I think you have to take both into consideration when training, because one of them alone is no good without the other when it comes to creating power.
published at Oct 27th 2007 4:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Kap
#1- time yes, load, not so much. Speed of release is the most important component to distance thrown, so work in areas where time is a factor is huge: think of the Angel Spazov/Bulgarian Olympic lifting program. The main point in that training is max reps in 20 sec. at 1/3 of max load: results (max weight lifted) grew faster in this training program than in traditional pyramid to high weights program. Training with sub maximal loads at high speed is a more effective way to train throwers than heavy loads worked without regard to time. Speed kills..... the opponent.
#2- Training methods of speed deceleration.... in all throws there is an elastic reflex component, ideally progressing from the ground up to the final fling or sling of the implement. In order to get that elastic reflex action you have to have a sudden, solid block to work against, beginning with the block leg. Biomenchanics studies by Klaus Bartonitz show the need for a 4 times improvement in leg blocking power with a 10% increase of speed. So special block side work is much needed: single leg squats, lunges and jumps as well as lots of technique work to establish a very quick blocking after right foot grounding (working for simultanious but not quite) and moving into the block more than over it. The bracing action of the left leg will work as a support and as speed/power in applied horizontally into this brace it will naturally rise/lift as long as the bracing side stays firm.
Donate the book to a needy athlete.... I've had a copy for several years
published at Oct 27th 2007 4:46am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Paul
1) time is important as long as the loads used in training result in a power output at least equal to the power required for that specific event. ie: lifting a 100 lb weight in .1 sec would be less useful than a 300 lb weight lifted in .2 sec.
2) reversibility would be trained by plyometrics, i guess more specifically by contact plyos where you try and reverse directions as quickly as possible.
published at Oct 27th 2007 5:17am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Lomsy
Jeff, every time you post I learn something. I think your posts get cut and pasted into my throwing files more than any other poster.
As far as the general speed discussion goes, I think speed thing can be a bit of a trap when it comes to actual throwing.
We all know that good technique produces speed better than anything else. For example, if a coach has a dollar for every time he had to say "slow down out of the back" he wouldn't need to work, he could coach full time.
And thus we have the great paradox of throwing - going "slow" and deliberate creates the balance, straight lines, the positions and the timing (i.e. the waiting, not the rushing) that creates IMPLEMENT speed at release.
My big challenge at the moment in both the rotary shot and discus is summed up in a few simple questions
i) Am I on my left at the back
ii) Am I on my right in the middle
iii) Am I going straight and balanced
iv) Am I 'settling' on my right as the left comes down
v)Can I initiate the hip to face the throw on my left, then get a little time gap, then release.
Unfortunately the answer for each throw routinely is no for 4 or 5 of these points. No technique, no balance, no positions = no speed. In one shot throw, going as slow as I possibly could, and I mean SLOW, I got a yes for about three of these questions and the result was a throw about 75cm further than my masters best, and only a metre short of my lifetime best.
Of course, then came the old "if I threw that far going so slow, how much further am I going to throw going faster!!!!!" I'm sure you know the rest.........
published at Oct 27th 2007 7:15am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Brad Reid
I like each of your technique check-off questions... position and balance points throughout a throw, a nice summary.
On coming out of the back "slow." I know we all know this is a relative term as the faster the better as long as one doesn't lose control or cadence over the remainder of the throw.
I tell you what name comes to mind when I think of how "fast out of the back" sometimes works: Fazekas!!! My gosh, he spun out of the back so fast, he looked like a blur. Even in slow motion, Fazekas seemed to be on the edge of being out-of-position at several of your key points, but it all added up for him in the end. How he pulled that off, I am uncertain except it is obvious he's an exceptional athlete... I recognize few others could manange that speed.
Fazekas was a judo player first wasn't he? If so, maybe that accounted for some motor conditioning where he could go in and out of balance, recover, and use it to his advantage.
published at Oct 27th 2007 7:45am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Kap
Thanks for the kind words.
I think your problems with getting good results in 4 & 5 is a result of a "yes" at #3 that lasts too long. A pause on the right in rotational throws will pull your upper body early, throw your body alignment left too far and hurt balance as you fall left from too long a right single support. Going painfully slow forces you to accelerate to the front ring and avoids that pause so 4 & 5 are better as are results. A rapid roll or turn of the right knee/heel will place the left down firm and fast and turns your hips well ahead of the shoulder axis.
To me, rhythm and acceleration are key: they add a huge loading effect from the block IF you accelerate thru all your phases to block. When you are consistant in painfully slow, then you can do everything in less time, just slow. Gain consistancy slow, then bump up to slightly moving and keep the "get consistant, use less time" progress going. I like the term "less time" than "go faster".... trying to go faster just causes tension and lost elastic ability and rhythm.
Bombs away, mate!
published at Oct 27th 2007 8:21am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
1)They are important because it's these 0,2 sec that all inertia is overcome.From this point on the body and the implement may still have the same mass but don't hold the same weight.
2)I would maximize the load and minimize distances so as to only get the change of direction i want,increase reflexes and decrease dead time.For example,i would have a glider wear a vest and have him glide on a 5 foot ring.
published at Oct 27th 2007 8:28am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from LetItRip
Brad & Jeff make excellent points... Im listening to Jeff's and thinking but! but! then read Brads and say yeah... exactly..
Anyway one more thought i have is this, and it's along the lines of both of them..
I think is important to make clear specifically of the timing of the right > left out of the back. Just loading the left doesnt tell the whole story. Because you can load the left and still extend on the left while driving the right knee/leg across the circle, and if this occurs you have Jeff's scenario where the left wont be down in time, thus being on it way too soon,yada,yada,yada. So, the fast-chasing(following) left is paramount to achieving that great rhythm required/desired to setup the following steps as mentioned..
LateNight 2 cents..
published at Oct 27th 2007 1:17pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from brown
Are you old??
You should be able to answer yes to all of them by now!!
Hope to be back home for nationals and a beer!
published at Oct 27th 2007 7:01pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/