Quote from Norm Balke
Why can't he do both? In IA, you don't even have the 4K option as a 9th grader. I suppose the light shot crowd will say stay with the 4k. If he is throwing 52' with the 4k, he should be fine with the 12, I can't really see any problem with it.
published at Oct 14th 2007 1:38am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Norm Balke
That's a new one on me. I would go wherever the kid can have fun and the best coaching. There is certainly no rush.
published at Oct 14th 2007 4:16am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Kap
I'd echo w8coach's comments of keeping the smooth technique the priority so speed and position "throw" the shot rather than willful effort. If he's got a solid basic technique across the ring and into the delivery use the 12 lb shot to sense the delay or separation between the leg action to block and the "sling" release that results from that block. More of the idea that the 12lb shot is easier to get ahead of or glide/spin away from, then the delivery comes from the block re-action.
Bring him to see Glen Thompson in Harrisburg sometime, for sure when we do our Throwing School at Denver, PA in March (2nd weekend).
published at Oct 14th 2007 4:32am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from The Truth
I was curious why you know so much in regards to drug protocols. If you are truly coaching clean athletes, what is the benefit of doing so much in depth research on this subject? I would understand if you are trying to research athletes that are currently competeing against your athletes. Maybe in an attempt to see why they have an edge. These posts shed a negative light on you and your athletes. I just don't understand why you feel the need to continually weigh in on drug debates. You are giving athletes that may or may not be in the testing pool the knowledge to dope and bring their levels up to an elite level. Maybe I am completely out of line but it seems like you have the need to constantly tout your athletes as being "clean". I really begin to doubt this claim when I see constant reference to studies that are drug related.
I also find it odd that the performance improvements of soem of your athletes are very similar to those of athletes that were in the studies you seem to know so much about. It just looks really off to me. Most guilty parties are the ones who feel the constant need to back up their innocence. What does everyone else think?
published at Oct 14th 2007 5:34am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from MadDog
I just want to say I disagree with your opinion. Just because someone researches the effects of drugs on performances dosent mean they are cheating. Track and Field unfortunatly has had and do have athletes who use drugs. It's hard to say who's doing what until that athelte is caught. I dont think anyone here believes every elite athlete is clean but with that being said until they may be caught you shouldent play a guessing game.
published at Oct 14th 2007 6:14am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
Until someone's caught we shouldn't play a guessing game.
BUT many seem to play this game and actually like it very much ! It seems to suit their needs to play "clean" and accuse others based on rumour,hearsay,ignorance or secret service papers ! (would you believe everyhting such papers write? )
So,it's a very nice and self serving game UNTIL someone turns the tables on YOU ?
After carefull examination of competition results this year and the previous seasons,everyone will very easily see someone's name stand out as the prime example of a thrower that throws 19m in a meet and 21m the very next and then 19 again.With the 19m result usually appearing in the most important international competitions of the year,like,let's say this year's Worlds.
So,yes,i agree...decide for yourself.
published at Oct 14th 2007 6:31am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from JRapp
It's not like he threw 21m once and then 19m the rest of the time. He had several throws that were in range of his PB this year. 21.18, 21.17, 21.00, 20.95, 20.74, 20.52 etc...All of which were done at seperate meets. Did he do well at Worlds? No. But he's a young thrower and as big meet experience builds his performances will improve. Heaven forbit someone fails or does really well at a meet. Bedcause when they do we jump on them and say that either they were or they are doping. I'm not stupid and I know there's doping going on, but I'd rather believe that people are clean and get a bad taste in my mouth when they test positive rather than have the bad taste all the time like some of us do.
published at Oct 14th 2007 6:54am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from deltalima
My first two years on the college track scene were at a D1 school in California. My second year there we got a new coach, very accomplished in regards to this person
published at Oct 14th 2007 8:06am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Smith
You have to know what the drugs are worth in order to know what is possible clean.This is why i have studied these systems for years. So you know what can be done or can't be done.
I have a good handle on this but i am always working to get confirmation on the information i have. I only believe throwing information when i can get confirmation from someone inside the system. The conference in Canada i seen exact documents used in the lectures i have in my possession.
Also you are incorrect about the drug curve in performance in my athletes. Dan went from 62.9 in high school to 60.0 with the 16lb. A big jump but normal for an athlete that is big and talented. Next jump was to 65.8. The next jump was 69.11. Now he is going to fight for inches.Connie went 43 high school/49.11/56.8/60.0/62.9/then 8 years to get to 64.3 3/4. You will find that the % of increase is very close.
Now a drug progression will look more like this High school 44 feet/48/52/55/63. If you train for more then 4 years and you see this kind of jump then chances favor the other. The drug systems are full of these examples.
If you are going to challege me on this board then have the guts to post your real name.
Also my throwers go throw anywhere at anytime and don't hide like many other World Class throwers. The ones that hide are the ones to take a good look at.
I post on this subject because i want to present that you can be world class without the drugs. Too much is presented and accepted that to be world class you have to do the drugs.This has to change or the chemists will run the sport and we will end up like the WWF or Pro Bodybuilding.
published at Oct 14th 2007 8:09am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from caboose
I just wanted to know how far we all think Randy Barnes would have thrown clean?
I think he would have been around the 22 mark still.
published at Oct 14th 2007 8:57am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from The Truth
I respect what you have to say. I was not questioning your athletes. Just questioning your reasoning for discussing drug protocols so openly on this board. And just so everyone knows I was not talking about Dan. However based on your example, I do wonder what you think of a progression like this?
59.72, 66.30, 72.51.
published at Oct 14th 2007 9:18am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Smith
No offense taken. When you get on this board you will be questioned.
I however will not comment on any numbers. Numbers are connected to athletes and i am very careful not to accuse anyone. Since the numbers you brought up is the progression of my hammer thrower Brittany Riley i will comment on it. Brittany actually reached 72.51 in 2.5 years. Brittany was a very undeveloped athlete coming out of high school. Very little lifting background and a new event that i didn't have to fix any major problems. Brittany learn to throw the hammer very quickly and with my lifting became powerful very quickly. I lift her 2 times a week. One Squat, One Pull with the upperbody work split between the two lifting workouts. Only 5 sets in the Squats per week in the off-season. Everything is based off of recovery.
1. 2005- Brittany threw 182 her frosh year at conference and then 195 at junior nationals. 195 happen in month no#9.She won JR.Nationals ofF a 2 turn throw.She then threw 59.72 at Junior Pan AM'S. She didn't turn well at this point but she had a killer release.
2. 2006- 75.5 in the weight from 62 the year before. Now she had over a year of hammer training. 70% of the work was done heavy with the throwing and around 30% done light, 4k and below. 35% of the throwing was done heavy and short or 1/2 of all heavy throws. About 65% of all throws were taken with speed because short and heavy is still fast. I had 4 hammer workouts per week along with 2 discus and 2 shot workouts. One workout was long and heavy starting with more turns then competition. One workout was all shortwires with 2 light hammers. another workout was a weight throwing day and the last day was a speed throwing day.Brittany started getting better at a 3 turn throw which helped things go much farther. She then reached 66.30 at NACAC.
3. YEAR 2007- We pretty much followed the same off-season training and she reached 70 meters with a 3.5 during the fall.I knew she would throw at least that during the spring. Weight went 83.10 this was 1.5 less then she threw the 18lb during the fall. However throwing light is not what makes it go. Throwing heavy makes the 18lb go. The weight will go farther.The hammer in the spring went as planned but the 72.51 at Drake was a surprised.Regionals was more then expected. NCAA'S was learning to deal with pressure, USA'S was on the money. Pan Am's was a lack of heavy throwing and worlds was just trying to get it out of the cage. Worlds she was in 73 meter shape but rarely does any thrower make the finals the first time through.
I have this all charted and know why she threw far at the 3 -72 meter meets and why she failed at the others. I now have a baseline that we can work from that Brittany understands and has imput on her training. She also understands why she threw far but more importantly why she failed.
This fall i have moved her to 2 long hammer days because she turns much better with heavy long implements. She starts with a 18lb hammer for 5 turns on these days. She is taking about 105-115 throws per week. She still has a heavy shortwire day which starts with a 30lb on a 1/2 wire and a weight day that she starts with a 35lb.
I know the hammer community in this country will cring when they see these things but I have been gathering info on this event from all over the world and advice from my old coach Rob Roeder (I should of listen years ago) and sharing of training and Data with Jerry Clayton of Auburn, Brian Forrester of Akron, and Keturah Lofton and Veronica Jatsek of Ohio State. Jerry discovered the importance of mutiple turn throws with a heavy long implement and Brian proved to me that heavy short wires not only make the hammer go far but also makes the weight go far. Keturah got the results and implemented them into Veronica.
This hammer throwing for me has been a group project to quickly find the trial and error answers.
Its not the norm in this country but i deal in what works. In the end you will have a pile of what works and you also have a pile of crap that doesn't work. I deal in the pile that works. I deal in numbers of training. The numbers always tell the story.
I have wriiten a detail 9 page paper on Brittany's training that i will present with Jerry at the High Performance clinic in Vegas. This is a big problem with American throwing we don't like to share information. Two years ago I presented this same info and it ended up on the floor. Now people what to know because Brittany threw far quickly. This is not new to me it happen with Connie and Dan and many of my throwers.
published at Oct 14th 2007 10:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
I think the general problem here is that even if ther hasn't been any specific implications of athletes, there have been many indirect implications made , even by you. I'm not going to calim you are wrong that athletes in the past have used, ( we can go back and find those posts if necessary) but the fact remains that athletes today are still using as evidenced by Marion and others. Nobady should be pointing their fingers at you or anyone for that matter, but instead at the system that causes the problem in the first place. The system wants top level performances and will turn its head in certain ways to ensure they will continue to happen. The system will not tolerate insubordination. It has become, over the years , a case by case situation. If you are close enough to the cause, you know the facts. The system commands the level of performance, creates loopholes for it to take place, and punishes those who don't go along. Stop pointing the fingers at each other or we become the animal itself. Instead, if we all want something different, lets make the change at the top that will fasilitate the utopia we desire.
published at Oct 14th 2007 11:27am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Scratch
Lets just clear the air. How about we name names. I have a list from first hand sources. No I thinks, or maybes. If its not from a teammate, friend, coach, or family it is not coming up. No enemies or axe grinders. Who would like some names?
published at Oct 14th 2007 12:02pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Coach Rodney
Is Winning, Coming is first? or is Winning throwing a Personal Best. If your looking for Self Satification and walking away from a competition placing far from first place yet throwing a personal best, couldn't it be called winning? Or is it that you placed 2nd and loosing by a foot saying you got your behind slapped. I know some on here will say you need to win to be called a winner! Wonder if those two have won a meet? Lets see if they respond to this!!!!
published at Oct 14th 2007 2:49pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Smith
You are missing the point.
Almost every week when i coach one my athletes will come up to me and ask me a question about so and so on youtube and why they are not throwing like that. Or i see them doing something in the ring and i asked them about it and they say so and so does it on youtube. Then I have to explain why they can't do it and give them the reasons why.The conversation always ends in a drug discussion. Then i give them throwers to look at.
You are correct that i do make indirect implications of an era in throwing and that is the point. Much like the old Nascar guys that were all about cheating with thier cars and getting away with it to win. Then the regulations got tighter and drivers had to become better because the cars became more even. Now that doesn't mean that cheating still doesn't go on, but it takes more money, more technology and a better way to avoid detection. All this limits the field and this is why you don't see 10 women throwing over 70 and many over 70 meters like you did back in that era.
Cheating still goes on but not at the level as those days and belongs now to the wealthy events in the sport.
So the job of a college or high school coach is to find those athletes that threw far without. The best usable training information comes from these athletes and coaches. My hammer training template actually started with Lance. His info was usable and works for todays throwers.
I present what i present on this board so coaches and throwers have a different veiw of what they are looking at and try to give concrete reasons what to look for and what the drugs were worth.
When looking at old lifting from that era a good starting point is cut the workout in half or do one week in two weeks. I went through these many years ago and found that two days a week made athletes stronger faster then anything i tried.
As for the throwing much of the drill work is good but the amount of throws and the amount of sessions per week is not. Also thier are techniques that can't be done clean.You see a lot of these in the glide and old female discus throwing.
I am sorry i offend this era but its not helping us its slowing us down. This is the point.
published at Oct 14th 2007 11:34pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/