"The Ring" archive entries from Sep 20th 2007

These are the posts from "The Ring" archive on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/ from day Sep 20th 2007

Quote from w8coach

I think you made a tremendous point, and the one I have been attempting to make in previous discussions. Strength is the easier component compared to tech to learn in the throwing spectrum and is the one opted for in too many cases. Technical development may take long but will provide more reliable results, that's my contention.

published at Sep 20th 2007 1:51am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from toestani

Does american throwers use over weight discus in their training?

How about other countries

published at Sep 20th 2007 1:52am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from tomsonite

A good point. When I was in high school I pretty much didn't care at all about strength, all I cared about was technique and throwing far. As a result I neglected lifting and ended up having decent technique in the shot with no strength to back it up. Since I'm not Janus Robberts I only threw 46'.
I think what's important is realizing which one, technique or strength, is your weakness and know which one to work on more. As a result of concentrating so much on shot technique in high school, I learned 'how to learn technique' well if you will. I think because of this I've managed to have decent hammer technique in only three years of doing it. In addition, I now realize the importance of strength and I'm doing my best to get stronger, since my strength levels are still low relative to my teammates and guys I will be competing against. Hopefully getting stronger in the weight room plus continued work on technique will result in some big PBs this season.

To sum it up, you need to find the strength vs. technique balance that works for you, and that won't be the same for every person.

published at Sep 20th 2007 2:13am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

I agree that strength is less important than how you use it in the throw.

BUT technique you can improve on throughout your career.
With strength you have to respect mother nature's windows of opportunity : namely from age 15 to age 20.
If you don't have it by age 21 then no matter how hard you work at it and no matter how many and much drugs you take ,you'll always be behind to what you could have been.
Plus,although i always understood the importance of technique and its superiority over strength,i could never understand this: you have 2-3 hours per week on the strength room.Why not work as hard as possible there,why try less than 100% even if your priority is technique ?
It makes me sad and angry both when i see great throwers being lazy in the weight room ,the reason being that they 'got the technique' .
They are always the same ones that cry about the winners being on drugs and beating them on strength alone...well,it's not the drugs (which are the same for everyone),it's the fact that he worked his ass off to get a 270k bench and you always complained of a pulled shoulder and thought your 210k was enough.

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published at Sep 20th 2007 2:50am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I think you are correct about quality time in the weightroom and hitting your physical peaks. I also realize that strength is also a mental discipline that helps the thrower in the ring. It is amental as well as a physical challenge to push to new weightroom pr's. That mental approach transends to the ring and helps to break pr's there as well.

published at Sep 20th 2007 4:02am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Harold F

"strength is less important than how you use it in the throw." Well said. And there is a key component in that statement. It seems obvious but too many people miss the point:

You cannot use strength that you do not have no matter how perfect your technique.

No matter how technically proficient you are, if you are not strong you won't throw far. And Viking is dead right when he says 15 to 21 is the critical age range to build the stregth. This is when the testosterone stores are at their natural peak and can be utilized to their fullest.

Robberts was a phenomenally coordinated athlete with exceptional levers and very solid lifts except in the squat and bench. Though those lifts were still OK. He is the freakish exception to the rule. In order to throw far, get as strong as possible and learn to efficiently use the strength you develop. Simple as that...

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published at Sep 20th 2007 4:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Kap

China now has a Hooters-
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3621677&page=1

published at Sep 20th 2007 4:19am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Lauren

Just replying to the postes from the last few days. I totally agree that throwing in the stadium is helpful to promote the events and as a thrower that where I wanted to be; but as a meet director you close your eyes everytime a hammer leaves the cage when you have other events going on. The hammer sector and discus sector are the same but as we all know the hammer tends to find it's way out of the cage. Unlike a discus if it hits the cage theres a lood chance its still going out someplace as a discus usually drops. I've seen a number of hammers get pulled and hooked out of IAAF cages. The last thing the event needs is someone getting hurt.

published at Sep 20th 2007 4:27am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Harold F

In my experience, I have found that the athletes who focus too much on technique, and consider themselves "technical throwers" are the ones who are too lazy to really work in the weight room. The weight room is a difficult place to make substantial gains. And those gains hurt. They are exhausting. They are earned.

Technical gains can be made by solely investing TIME in drills and throwing and video taping. They aren't all that physically demanding the way lifting is. If a thrower has decent athleticism (and a decent coach) technique is relatively easily come by (in terms of physical effort) and focusing too much on this aspect of training will not lead to much success.

I believe lifting is the work, throwing is the reward. One cannot survive on rewards all the time, they lose their value.

published at Sep 20th 2007 4:35am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Its no surprise.

I was in China last year and there were McDonald's, Pizza Huts and Kentucky Fried Chickens on every corner!

published at Sep 20th 2007 4:42am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

For a lot of guys, being a "technical thrower" is code for being weak and not putting 100% into lifting.

published at Sep 20th 2007 4:45am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Brad Reid

I'll tell you what I have noticed, at least anecdotally, on why masters throwers in their 40s who are often as strong as they were in their prime years yet throw less far. It isn't normally a lack of strength, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a lack of flexibility, and some are more knowledgeable and can apply better techniques as masters... it's the amount of ring work one can do without the reps wearing you down to a nub.

I can think of several really good masters throwers who came out strong early on and looked like they'd make big forward progress, then they quickly lose it. We had one very excellent age 40 discus thrower a few years ago: big, strong, athletic, big early-on throws in his comeback. He looked to me like he could have moved up to the 185' area but instead he rather quickly regressed to 150' throws. I think the work got him.

My guess is he, like all of us, knew he needed those ring reps and lots of them to progress, yet a masters thrower suffers from the throwing workouts.... a real conundrum. I guess it's analogous to why one may get sore (and also injured) moving relatively light furniture, yet one can bang out heavy lifts in the gym with no ill effects.

It could be worse... ping pong players peak in their late teens and swimmers often do too.

In all of sports, there are few examples of athletes competing at world class levels into their late 30s or even 40s than in the discus throw, but that seems to be more for the guys who never put it down and throw into that age.

But, anyway, for an avocational masters thrower, I can think of many instances where the ring work whittled down the performances.

Brad

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published at Sep 20th 2007 5:17am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

In my experience, I have found that athletes who focus on too much weight room, and are considered "strong throwers" are the ones that are too lazy to really work on technique. These gains hurt and are exhausting ,too.If technique is relatively easy to come by why do so few poses it? Or better yet, recognize it? The strength argument is usually used by the strong as that is where they have invested their time. That is their belief. It is not one the technicialns of the past share.

published at Sep 20th 2007 5:19am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I just want to clarify that I have never in any post saidnthat weightlifting was unimportant and not to be performed in place of tech work. I have only stated that tech is much harder to perfect and takes more time to get there. Most opt for emphasis on strength as it comes faster. If strength were the most important component, the event would be dominated by the strong only.

published at Sep 20th 2007 5:38am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from saminal

n/m

published at Sep 20th 2007 5:56am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Tony Dziepak

What is your test quad scores, and your vertical jump now vs. your college days? I think the decline over the 40 years is mostly not directly age-related, but comes mostly from the drastic reduction in training volume due to work and family, resulting in a trimming of warm-up, cool-down, and recovery activities, resulting in less effective recovery. This leads to less opportunity to build volume and intensity without setbacks from minor injuries and an inconsistent schedule due to work and family commitments. As a result, the thrower achieves a lower level of athleticism and dynamic strength.

published at Sep 20th 2007 6:12am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

For a lot of guys, being a "strong thrower" is a code for having terrible technique and not putting 100% into perfecting their technique!

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published at Sep 20th 2007 6:18am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Hunter

Agreed, but in my experience I've seen far more weak, subpar athletes hang their hats on technique than monsters that disregard technique and boast about being strong.

published at Sep 20th 2007 6:25am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I understand that strength is the fastest way to thorwing a certain distance. Some of the best meets, Olympics and the Trials , cater to the strong as far as warmups etc. I know many athletes that are sub par lifters that are tops in theor sprot and even world record holders and Olympic Champions. Although they worked out dilligently in the wieght room, they hung their hats on theor superior tech.They practiced the best tech they could and they were consistent in every venue.

published at Sep 20th 2007 6:30am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/