"The Ring" archive entries from Aug 31st 2007

These are the posts from "The Ring" archive on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/ from day Aug 31st 2007

Quote from Hunter

This post is meant in the utmost respect and was motivated in part by Coach Smith's point about "arm-chair quarterbacks...".

There have been various posts through the years about Godina's rt foot in the middle, Cantwell struggling at some meets, Hoffa's foot out of the back, American Hammer Throwers, Nelson's high leg, spin vs glide, drugs, the purpose behind "Big Wind meets", etc. that have caused various levels of uproar.

People like Viking have made posts that while often being reasonable, are torn apart by armies of ringers.

I honestly feel 99% of ringers love the sport and want to see all other throwers be sucessful, Yet whenever someone posts something that isnt BLATANT BROWN-NOSING, its viewed as "hating" or "bashing". I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

I enjoy the ring and have visited the site just about everyday for almost a decade. I just wish we could develop some thicker skins and better social skills so we could have a reasonable dialogue about the issues in our sport.

KK

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published at Aug 31st 2007 1:01am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from dominik

I think a world class athlete has to live with critique if it is no personal insult. I don't know the American situation but in germany athletes are supported by tax money. Those athletes are pro athletes they don't do much other than throwing, so you can't compare them to recreational athletes("What have you done that you critique him").

Since they are pros and send to compete for the country they are expected to bring top performances.

In germany the criterion for sending an athlete is the ability to reach the best eight if he does not reach the goals his support can be cut.

I don't know how it is in the US but in germany a soccer player that makes some bad games can be "murdered" by the media and those writers also can't play better soccer than them.
I think it would be the same if a multi million dollar baseball player like ARod would only hit 0.1.

Of course I know that throwers are not earning that much but nontheless they are persons of public interest which are always critizised(like celebrities). Of course it mustn't be personal insult.

We are all interested in the throws and so it is only natural that we speculate about the reason of how a competition goes even if we not find the real reason if there is one. If someone thinks that a guy like Rome has technical issues where say it if not here even if he obviously can't do better. Nobody rants about a fot SOB criticizing a MLB pitcher so why can't we here discus it.

I agree if a thrower does not want to read here. It can be a big distraction especially prior to a comp. I know that the german runner Baumann when he had his Doping affair did not watch TV at all and I can understand him. But this is a throwers board and we discuss about throwing here.

dominik

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published at Aug 31st 2007 1:05am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from msuthrower

Just playing Ken...

How's life? Drop me a line.

Steve

published at Aug 31st 2007 2:00am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Coach Herring

I have to agree that nothing can prepare like experience. On a lower level, i have a thrower w/ a 54m PR in disc. She fouled out of the regional meet both fresh and soph year, got through as a junior, with a low 50m throw and threw 45m at NC's. I only hope that we can manage to deal better with the pressure next year, but even so, she is progressing.

published at Aug 31st 2007 2:02am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

Biofeedback and motor learning are interests of mine as well. In order to directly answer your question I have to say that this is a over thirty years of experienced based research project in the throws and not a clinical research project. I apologize for taking the clinical expert of of context. As for the practical expertise the single most difficult as pect to unlearn in the throws is the contraction of muscles in partial or full stretch in throwing athletes. Once the large muscles of the chest are contracted at that point the connection between the upper body and lower body have been ultimately lost. Training the an athlete that hasnt learned to incorperate strech reflex and complete motions inot ther tech ultimately leads to using the large muscles of the chest for contraction on full stretch which is much slower than the stretch reflex as an accelerator of an unweighted implement. The numbers and facts of strech reflex are enough to place it ahead of brute strength alone. My laboratories are the circle and the runway. I again, apologize for taking the positon of a clincal researcher in the lab.

published at Aug 31st 2007 2:14am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from jayess

I don't know. It's hard to say.

What I was trying to comment on was all the posts mentioning certain size requirements in order to have world class potential in the discus, and I was just wondering how many times Nelson and Hoffa might have heard that they just didn't have the size that would allow them to go very far in the shot put.

Hats off to them for demonstrating that the so-called intangibles are still a big part of the equation.

published at Aug 31st 2007 2:34am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Brad Reid

It's one of the oddest things and a sort of permanent topic on The Ring, the relative value of bench pressing to discus throwing and other throws too.

I think Tom Fahey actually covered this very topic in a scholarly research paper several years ago when he studied correlations between several common lifts and the throws. It seems to me that the greatest correlation was "deadlift to discus," but I could be remembering the results wrong.

To muddy the waters a bit, isn't it interesting that Mac Wilkins was no fan of big bench pressing and wanted the "loose" upperbody, yet he styled himself technically after the great L. Jay Silvester, whom I believe was more of a proponent and practitioner of bench pressing. Coach Rodney would know. Both were 70+ meter throwers and Olympians, so, go figure.

In all sports, we are encumbered with what could be called "ipso facto logic" and we often stumble because of it in determining how to think about relational things.

Big dude bench presses 500 lbs., Big dude throws discus 60 meters, so 500 lbs. bench press is either: 1) required to throw 60 meters; or, 2) bench pressing 500 lbs. helps one throw 60 meters.

Then, along comes some other dude who throws 60 meters and bench presses 250 lbs.

We hate that guy, don't we, for messing with our easily-formed logic?

Ha Ha! Brad

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published at Aug 31st 2007 2:38am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from my63cents

I definitely agree with you.

I guess I'm just happy football didn't get in the way of seeing the potential realized.

published at Aug 31st 2007 2:44am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Brad Reid

I have had this idea in my mind for some time... I think I have actually mentioned it here before.

If a particular activity is supposed to be advantageous to a sport, then I think it may be constrained in terms of the limits of its efficacy by how much the sport itself would improve the precursor activity applied in the other direction. So, my guess is a hypothetical non-lifter shotputter "would" improve his lifting numbers in such things as one arm dumbbell lifts like a press, incline press, and bench press. In other words, as he increases his proficiency as a shot putter with greater distances thrown, one would notice an attendant strength gain in the gym if he or she were tested on occasion, but otherwise didn't work out with weights. But, on the other hand, if a javelin thrower increased his distance, would it result in a gain in the gym in bench pressing with the throwing arm? If the javelin throwing activity doesn't net a gain in the gym lifts, then how could those particular gym lifts accrue benefits in the other direction.

You get the idea. I do believe there would be some general benefits passed back and forth just based on conditioning and so forth. Too, weightlifting adds mass and mass all by itself is needed by weightmen.

Hmm??? Brad

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published at Aug 31st 2007 2:56am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I trust that we all take care and naturall respect one and another's position graciously and agree and disagree with intent on making the sport better. NONE of us should have to post their resumes, each post, in order to persuade the masses. It is my belief that each has a position and a right to question the hierarchy.There is always someting out there that could help our thrower's position, we just have to be open-minded and not defensive in approach. Too many of the posts have either been somewhat inflamatory, defensive,or taken out of context. I agree with you that experience is the master and making it to Europe can be the turning point in a young career. I agree with you on the the sloppy tech but I think improvements can be made with all as no thrower has perfect tech. Not a knock but a fact or they should quit as they've reached their max performances already. Perfecting their tech will ensure optimum performance in any venue, bottom line. As far as the knocks against Bud, those are persona and derived from an obvious jealous intent. As coaches with the ability to see, sure his like all others disply flaws that will not allow them to maximize when it's nut cutting time. My throwers have flaws. It's a constant work in progress but I have to be open to chage even if it is a blow to my ego. Ultimately we all want the very best for all athletes.I totally understand what you relayed to us about George's comments on surviving the games. I didn't throw in the games but I did throw in the trials and it is virtualy the same set up for the athlete. Too little concern for the athlete and too much concern for media and expected actions. Still solid tech rises to the top again. I don't have as much experience with specific strength as I am still a firm believer in throwing lighter implements as they force the thrower to feel the reduced weight by moving off-side body parts. If you contract you can't feel it move. I am of the opposite of the spectrum as to what is the most largest breakdown. True the trial and the games are set for the bigger and stronger throwers due to two warm up throws and limited time to get the feel but if an athlete has poor tech strength is only going to take them so far or the biggest and strongest would always win. Complex tech or solid tech doesn't breakdown for those who practice it. I saw very few to this point in the comp that have it. I truly hope that you are classifying the "Arm-Chair Quarterbacks" comments to where it applies. NONE of us are without tech disparities. Collaboratively, and not as a dictator, we can help find ways to keep our high maintainance ego out of the way loing enough to help our thorwers improve the positions they already enjoy. Remember, unfortunatley clean is a loose term for those who haven't been caught. Why can't the masses stop using the durg excuse and focus on proper tech.

published at Aug 31st 2007 2:57am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from tomsonite

I don't know much about the subject, but
1. I have also heard that dead lift correlates to discus distance...don't know how or why, I've just heard that before too.
2. I have also heard that Anthony Washington did little conventional weightlifting, and the lifting he did do was mainly snatches and jump squats. Which we could all agree worked for him.

Do many elite discus throwers have huge benches like shot putters? I don't know, thats why I'm asking. I guess Rutger Smith might since he's a good doubler but does anyone know about other throwers today/from history?

published at Aug 31st 2007 3:09am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

Mac Wilkins 440 pr bench, Powell 460 with bounch and arch at 226' and 290 lb at 233'.

published at Aug 31st 2007 3:28am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Brad Reid

I'll never forget someone sort of being really unimpressed here on The Ring by Washington's squat number when an article mentioned he lifted in the 600 lb. range in that lift, or trained up to that weight. For whatever possible value a heavier 700 or 800 lb. squat would add to a discus thrower, even an elite one, I am simply unable to comprehend it myself.

Washington was sort of banged up physically toward the end of his throwing career, yet he got off that great WC throw of 69.08 meters in 1999. When interviewed by a local paper as I recall, and asked about his then training regimen, he said other than throwing, he was doing some dips and chins in his backyard.

Yes, many elite discus throwers have high bench press levels though probably fewer than you think can lie on a bench in a standard t-shirt and strictly bench press over 500 lbs. Now, for shotputters, it'd be much more common I think.

Brad

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published at Aug 31st 2007 3:36am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from CSickler1

So can a say someone with the proper height range and decent lifts can throw 220+? That is what I am getting from the Powell 290 Bench and Washington jungle gym exercises...

published at Aug 31st 2007 4:03am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from MadDog

I just wanted an idea of when do you start with heavy implements? Do you start from day 1? With females is there a certain weight that is a cutoff weight such as 35lb in the weight throw and maybe 50lb for men? I'm very interested in this topic because I've personally seen two of your throwers in the weight do incredible things with tremendous improvement. Watching Britney throw over 75 feet falling away from the sector and seeing mark milleville go from a mid 50 foot thrower to a 70 footer with the weight. What they've done is simply amazing.

published at Aug 31st 2007 4:38am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from JRapp

If you watch the discus video Mac Wilkins made (Gold Medal Discus?) he mentions that he believes the bench hinders discus technique. He suggests doing dumbbell flyes instead. Jurgen Schult reached a point late in his career when he only did half squats and bench press, so I'm assuming he did bench through the early part of his career. I don't think bench has nearly the impact on the disc as it does the shot. I think doing straight arm dumbbell flyes that work the stretch reflex are better for the disc than a benching movement.

published at Aug 31st 2007 4:38am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Coach Herring

I like to look at my throwers and rank their needs, for example 1. power, 2. flexibility, 3. speed, 4. coordination, ....and so on. I come up with these rankings based on their weaknesses. I think it wold be hard to say the bench press will make or break a thrower. That being said if they do not have shoulder or flexibility issues, the bench press is utilized in the rotation of exercises. The bench press probably would not make my top three, when ranking priority lifts for a hammer / discus thrower, but it definitely would for a shot putter. That being said it still is part of my program for all my throwers granted they don't have the issues mentioned before.

I have to agree with Coach Smith, that you must look at your program as a whole. i don't think any one is sitting in the weight room bench pressing every day. We are all working technique through drill / throws, speed, explosiveness, but while a thrower developes their throwing abilities, a thrower with marginal technique and above average power/strength levels will through farther than a thrower with marginal technique and marginal power. I especially agree that many women throwers are throwing very far based almost exclusively on power with a small implement.

published at Aug 31st 2007 5:20am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Harold F

You've confused me again...

"Once the large muscles of the chest are contracted at that point the connection between the upper body and lower body have been ultimately lost."

I don't understand. What "connection" are you talking about? It can't be a physical connection, can it? Please elaborate.

"Training the an athlete that hasnt learned to incorperate strech reflex and complete motions inot ther tech ultimately leads to using the large muscles of the chest for contraction on full stretch which is much slower than the stretch reflex as an accelerator of an unweighted implement."

In my understanding of muscular physiology, what you are describing is virtually impossible due to musculoskeletal limitation. Once a large muscle (i.e. the pec/delt complex in the discus event), is placed on any significant, isolated stretch, it is nearly impossible to then contract it without grave consequences applied to the associated connective tissues. Think of lying on your back on an elevated bench and doing a heavy dumbbell fly exercise. At the bottom of that lift (where you started with your arms out straight as a crucifixion pose and then relaxed your pecs to allow the dumbbells maximal posterior travel relative to your flexibility) is it possible to contract your pecs from that deep position with any urgency? Not without popping things. No throwers I have ever seen (save for the throwers on their first or 2nd day with the disc) are contracting their pecs/delts to make the implement fly. Certainly no thrower over 50m is attempting this. It is not a reasonable conclusion to draw nor much of a valid observation, in my mind.

In addition, who's throwing "unweighted implements"? I'm not sure what you mean.

Obviously, as it has been studied to death in the lab and put into practice across so many sports (from golf to throwing), the stretch reflex is critically important to generating limb velocity. Brute strength is not an inhibitor of stretch reflex, however. Inflexibility (lack of ROM) is.

"The numbers and facts of strech reflex are enough to place it ahead of brute strength alone."

What numbers and facts are you talking about? I'd like a reference to read them, if possible.

Thanks again for your considerate response. I welcome other views on this interesting topic.

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published at Aug 31st 2007 5:23am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from BenHur

Alright here

published at Aug 31st 2007 5:40am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/