"The Ring" archive entries from Aug 31st 2007

Quote from Coach Herring

Much of what you said was mentioned in my question. I know I threw the shot in middle school too, but had no coaching. If these athletes are "working on technique" in the shot, why aren't they being coached in the disc as well? I know the hammer is another issue as most states don't throw hammer in high school.

published at Aug 31st 2007 5:51am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from John Smith

1. Kent, i think the ring may catch on fire because we agree.
2. Benching is a main driving force for the Shot and the Discus. If it wasn't important the Europeans woundn't of had so many women benching between 160k-190k and throwing the 2k discus 160-180 feet. For the discus they cared the most about the snatch and the bench. Once they got the squat to certain levels they just maintained that level. The snatch and the bench is what they pushed. Flexibility was kept by doing other exercises. The heavy throwing itself will help maintain flexibility.
3. American Shot putting has a lot to do with the fact we are a country of upperbody dominated athletes in the weight room and the amount of time spent Indoors and Outdoors throwing the shot. In high school we throw the 12lb far (65-70 foot kids) every year. This sets the stage for some guys to throw the 16 that far. With the women however we throw to heavy in high school. We should be throwing a 3k so girls can throw 60+ in high school then develop into the same in college. To amny girls just throw the 4k and thats fine but you should be training the 3k and a 10lb just as hard. With the discus i recently was informed that many very good high schoool discus throwers have thrown far in the last 10 years. We can handle the 1.6 but somehow we don't have the horsepower to convert to the 2k.It takes a good thrower to throw 210 + in high school somehow we are not making it to the next level. Is this technique or is this specific strength. We have to ask ourselves these questions.

4. Technically its much easier to develop hammer throwers because they know nothing about the event. Many High school shot and Discus throwers required 2 years of fixing thier high school technique which in many cases can't be fixed. If we had many good coaches at the high school level I could agree with this theory but in most cases we do well with the spin shot because its a different technique that most throwers don't do in high school.Again I think we are good in the shot because the raw materials are in place.

5. I AM NOT SAYING TECHNIQUE IS NOT IMPORTANT I AM JUST SAYING THAT TO MUCH ATTENTION IS BEING GIVEN TO IT. If i have learned anything from the past is that a huge standing throw takes care of many technical problems.

John Smith

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published at Aug 31st 2007 6:22am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Viking

Throughout the years this has been debated over quite a few times.

I believe that it has to do with what is generally talked about as "tradition".
x
Take it from the beginning : US kids grow up watching a lot os shotputting because there's a lot of great shotputters in the US getting medals.It's something else if you grow up watching Matson,Long,Woods,Feuerbach,Oldfield and a dozen others...how inspirational is that to a youngster? How many as great hammer throwers does the US have ?
Then,most importantly,all of the know how is there.If you have coached a 70 footer (and how about having coached 5 or 6 ? ) you know what it takes to take an athlete from 60 to 63 and then to 65 and then to 68 and finally to 70 or 71.Provided of course that the talent is there.A coach that hasn't had this experience can only guess and experiment,and possibly cannot identify whether the 60 footer he trains has the ability to throw 70 one day.
There are so many good shotput coaches in the US that even if an athlete cannot flourish with one,there's always another coach that might help him more.
There are a lot of countries in which there's only one great coach per event and if you happen to be his athlete you have to do things his way and his way only.
As great as the DDR system was,an athlete such as Brian Oldfield would probably have been lost as under those circumstances.

And finally there's the psychological factor.Big throws aren't a myth in the US.They happen right in front of you,the athletes don't fear the 66 feet or the 70 feet line.They believe they can do it because they see it happen.In other countries a lot of throwers want the national record and consider this to be their end all be all goal,it's so much different when your national record is actually the world record.

"Tradition" is something that's built over time and it's stronger than anything,system,coach,talent or method.It's both a general feeling and an actual advantage and the great thing about it is that you know it when you have it and your competitors also know it.It gives you a mental edge.
The Finns in the javelin,the US in the sprints and the shot,the Soviets in the hammer and pole-vault,the Kenyans and Ethiopians in the long distances.
If you compete against them you compete against a myth and not a person.
You have to be mentally very tough to overcome this advantage and very smart and tough to take advantage of it when you have it and not let it crush you.

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published at Aug 31st 2007 7:18am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from CanuckHT

I'm not sure if there has been a post on Lysenko's situation (recently or any time in the last while) but she is not in Osaka as there is a dispute with the status of one of her samples.

There was talk of a "hormone problem" before, but I chalked that up to being a potential "female issue" lol, nothing more.

The coverage today has indicated however that there is a discrepancy with a testing sample...

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published at Aug 31st 2007 7:22am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

Sound like miscomunication still exists. What I'm attemting to convey to you is that we are on the same page when you you refered to inflexibility as the culprit. What I'm saying is that athletes taht learn to get strong first usually give up some of theis flexibility and in turn rely on the the shortening of the level(lever arm. The connection that I'm refering to is the one that is established from the back of the circle to the front of the circle that is initiated by the lower body and finished in the end by the upper body throough balance points, foot pivoing and complete motions. It is only impossible to contract , in the way you are seeing it, as it is a static movement. The discus thrower is moving but still can apply incorrect pressure to the discus because of the movement. This is the unweighted implement, one that has been motivated by the legs and arms moving across the ring. On the contrary too many throwers use their right arms at the end of the throw the discus. Are not aware of stretch reflex being able to move the limbs much faster than a human could contract them? I would have to say that if I had the best of both worlds, I love to have a athlete that I could teach to master the tech and then get him strong. Of course large, strong muscles would be able to handle a larger stretch reflex load, but the norm is usually one or the other.

published at Aug 31st 2007 7:22am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

John,
I understand the challenge of fixing poor understanding of the tech. It's always difficult for an athlete to let go consciously or subconsciously of what they may have been doing wring for four years. As I told you before , I am intrigued by some of the specific strength theories but am still a firm believer in throwing light implements for the reasons I outlined before. Isn't this the type of discussion the ring needs? Putting the things out there that could help all and not just our own personal twists on the subject? Maybe we'll disgree on which came first, the chicke or the egg, but having a forum that we can look at the solid technical things and the flaws that the best throwers are using , and be able to comment on it is just an avenue to get better understanding.

published at Aug 31st 2007 7:32am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from rlasorsa

Three guys in the final of the 5000 meters; Gold medal in the 1500 meters; bronze medal in the women's 10,000 meters. The distance group is doing a great job and deserves congratulations.

published at Aug 31st 2007 9:12am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from MAC

MAC

published at Aug 31st 2007 10:11am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Kap

nm

published at Aug 31st 2007 10:11am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from jayess

The World Championships in Italy are getting really close.

Tear 'em up over there!

published at Aug 31st 2007 10:40am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the the finer points of the throw. Do you think she would have thrown farther with better tech at that strength???

published at Aug 31st 2007 10:47am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

That is the point I attempted to make. I'm not advocating staying away from the weightroom. There are a lot more benefits to solid tech and that is where I will always focus my athlete's attention.

published at Aug 31st 2007 11:02am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from bruinHntr

getting into it with mac has been the worst thing I have ever done.

I am lost out here with out my videos!!!!!!!!!!


NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
I am fourtunes fool!!!!!!

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published at Aug 31st 2007 2:02pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from bruinHntr

I am sorry. my fingers are too big for the keyboard.

published at Aug 31st 2007 2:03pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Shaun P.

A question was raised by Tomsonite into the Bench capabilities of Rutger Smith, as he expected that Smith as a Shot putter would have a greater bench than most of the Discus throwers.

In fact, Rutger is probably one of the weaker Shot putters AND discus throwers out there when it comes to his weight room numbers. His max bench is around 200kg / 440lbs. He has always concentrated on the ability to move weight fast, and works with a MuscleLab machine to measure his power on occasions, and can generate more than 1500 watts for 5 reps at 100kg. This is more of a measure for him.

His squats have always been quite good, 280kg deep squats, but again realises that this is not the most important measurement, and that his jumping ability is much more important to focus on. He has a 3.50m standing long jump, and on a training trip to California some years ago when he was still a youngster, was able to jump onto a 39" box at Tony Ciarellis weightroom from 7 feet away.

Also, here in Osaka, the other throwers were talking about his training, as they saw Rutger throw 24m overhead a number of times in training, which was very impressive. Rutger has also focussed a great deal on his flexibility over the past 2-3years and this is paying off now, particularly in the Discus.

In the shot he has worked on his specific strength throwing heavy shots. He has thrown a 10kg shot 17.62m, but that was 2 years ago and might be better now. Similarly in the discus he uses 4kg D-Balls a lot in training.

His weight room numbers are not that impressive, but his athletic numbers are very impressive. I have personally measured him at 92cm vertical jump. He also has a 216 cm armspan at 197cm tall, which makes him better suited for discus perhaps than shot.

Also, the german discus throwers, certainly under the philosophy of Jurgen Schult do not focus on Bench Press for their discus throwers, that is reserved for the Shot putters. One of the main exercises are Bench Rows, which develop the back so that they are able to improve flexibility and the ability to hold the discus "back" in the throw. The y feel that Bench Press tends to shorten and tighten the chest, and so do not do very much of it. They do, however, do a lot of flyes, but performed in a certain way where they first stretch the chest muscles, moving the chest forwards, before beginning the "pull" phase of the flyes.

Jarrod and Ian could both benefit from improving their flexibility rather than their strength. They are probably the strongest guys out there, but if you look atthe flexibility that someone like Alekna displays while warming up, it is phenomenal.

Greetings from OSaka.

ShaunP

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published at Aug 31st 2007 2:46pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from KP

The simple answer to that simple question is always yes; there is no perfectly refined technique regardless of the athlete, and the answer would be yes to similar simple questions of stronger, quicker, more flexible and on and on. The question which you should have asked is; would Ramona have thrown further if she sacrificed some of her strength training energy for more technical work?

The answer there is absolutely not. There will always be some flaws in technique, but we had her technique pretty much where we wanted it most of the time after 1985, changing when necessary, and I really like her technique. But I am biased. Others are allowed their opinion, but she has held the American Record for over 22 years now, and she is still the #5 non-bloc putter ever. Physical development and technical development should always increase equally to reach the highest levels of our sport. It sure would have helped if she had a better coach though

published at Aug 31st 2007 5:16pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Coach Herring

In reference to your comment on HS girls throwing the 3k shot. I have heard you say before and agree that the men have an advantage, because they kow what its like to throw 60+ feet coming out of high school. I also think we share common heavy implement training concepts, so that being said. What are your thoughts on a HS girl doing most of her training reps with a 3k. I think you were implying that they competition weight should be changed to 3k, to allow the women the same advantage the men get (throwing far in HS). Just wondering, because I am not big on light weight training.

published at Aug 31st 2007 9:06pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from w8coach

Kent,
Although we all share respect for, not only for the distances she threw but the impact she had on the women's side of the sport.r Ramona's accomplishments were aoutstanding and still are to this day, I won't argue that point. I will say that I still think that improved tech would have been more beneficial than just pure strength and a combination of both would ahve been the best. I don't think you or anyone else could argue that she demonstrated perfect tech as I don't know any thrower in the history of the sport that practiced it.Some of the best technicians of history were not the biggest or the strongest. It's always going to be my contention that the better technician will hold up in all competitions and will be much closer to their maximum potentials.

published at Aug 31st 2007 10:51pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from Norm Balke

Riedel
Oerter
Beyer
Bugar
Price-Smith
Pagel

They had pretty good careers.

How many other athletes in their respective sports had "bad technique" but still excelled?

Bob Gibson in baseball comes to mind.

nb

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published at Aug 31st 2007 11:13pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/

Quote from John Smith

1. I work alot of throwing heavy but the light stuff is important to teach the body to move at higher rates of speed so it can handle meet time speed levels. However thier are athletes that work this end of the spectrum more then the other. Example-Connie could throw a 7lb shot 74.10 but only could throw the 10lb 60.1. The speed was always thier and the heavy side and strenght was the challege. If I had a thrower that could throw the 4k far from a stand and had high strenght levels then the amount of light ball throwing would be greatly increased. For most of my athletes its a 70/30 split heavy to light. For an athlete that was strong and could move heavy implements well but not the light implements it would be more like 40/60 heavy to light.

2. I believe that with a high school girls the training should be developed to make the 3k move far. This just requires training with a 6lb,3k,3.5k,4k,10lb in high school. If the high school thrower throws 50 feet then it will look more like 3k,3.5k,4k,10lb,5k and some 12lb from a stand. If the 3k can go over 60 in high school then the stage is set to throw 60 later on. It doesn't mean it will happen because thier are many other factors but the odds have been greatly improved. I do believe our high school girls should be competing lighter then the 4k.

3. Throwing heavy has huge effects on technique positioning and specific strenght.Throwing light trains the CNS. The trick is to blend the right amount with the athlete you have in front of you. You also have to give the right weight implements pertaining to the current strenght level of the athlete. This takes trial and error.

John Smith

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published at Aug 31st 2007 11:42pm on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/