Quote from thecomebackman
I think that discusdoc was just relating an experience about the early '80s, a time when cadaver's GH was widely used and that the subsequent data (Athen's) was relative to artificial GH, the one that NOW is widely used, in conjunction to other "products"...
published at Aug 2nd 2007 1:19am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Smith
To answer these questions again.
1.You can drive a ball up and out almost as far as a stand in a gliders fashion. Again, standing throw and full throws are directly related and I will stand by that becuase I have seen to much documention to support that. Bondarchuk's book transfer of training is full of charts of what the standing throw to full throw differentials for all weight implements. The Soviets thought it was important to track and study.
2.The DDR files talk nothing about standing throws but it proves the fact of what the drugs were worth. If you do the math you will find that standing throws have fallen at the same rate. Many of the German throwers fell in the late 80's at the same rate.Remember Hellman not making the 92 OLY Finals in the discus. Didn't even throw 200 then Vanished. The amount of great throwers can't be explained away because of injury or destruction of systems.
3. Sorry 22m for a women doesn't happen with JUST great technique. The women that did it had 21+ meter standing throws and huge weight room numbers in the range of 400-450 for the bench, 550-650 in the squat, 130-160k in the clean, and 110-130 in the snatch. I have personally verified these numbers from a coach that coached in the DDR system, and eyewitnees accounts by my wife, myself and others. Timmerman had a 21.89 standing throw. Beyer had a 22 meter standing throw. We also had men that had 70 foot standing throws that threw 22 meters that were not considered technicians.
3. 21 Meter standing throws vanished in the early 90's and so did the 22+ meter gliders. Too much history here to explain away that the athletes back then were just better. The facts that big stands are link to big power, and lots of heavy standing throws.
4. The reason Timmerman, Kumbernuss and Gunthor all could high jump and long jump well is thier bodyweight to strenght ratio's were so high. Kumbernuss had a 407 bench, 550 squat at age 18, 130k snatch and 160k clean at 200lbs. I personally witness NIEMKE SNATCHING 120kx2 in Canada days before the world Indoors. I waited 1.5 hours to see her lift. The German coach tried to have me thrown out but it was a public weight room so I stayed. He was pissed and cussed at me in German. She then went on and did speed benches with a pad at 160k for sets of 2. The bar was flying. She also did some jump squats with 140k. Then she threw around 20 meters. I guess all this had nothing to do with throwing far.
5. Viking we will agree to disagree. I will do what I do. I am in the process of coaching a man to 22 meters without drugs. The guys that have done that you can count on one hand. If Dan was as good as the athletes in the 80's he just might throw 76 feet.
published at Aug 2nd 2007 1:29am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Norm Balke
In 1987, NCAA drug testing took off annd the results were staggering. When I was throwing, roids were a viable option, the cost of doing business (insert cliche here). Yeah, illegal, wink, nudge, etc.
Are there drugs now? Yes, but, there is no denying that the testing is much more rigorous.
Stand throws: What do you say about those folks who say don't really work on them? That maybe a half-throw is a better suited training drill? Those folks would definitely not have great stands, because they don't really work on them. So maybe there are potential 19-20m (we'll assume that 21-22m stands are out of the picture right now) stand throwers out there? But they just aren't working on that aspect?
I see the point of stand throws as being a training tool, not a technique tool. If you wanted the stand to be a technique tool, you would want it to mimic the full throw, with the narrow base, etc. If you wanted to throw as far as possible with the stand, then it would have to be wide base, big bend, etc. Glide-like.
published at Aug 2nd 2007 1:47am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from dominik
Hi everybody this is my first post at the ring. Great to have so many knowledgeable throwers here.
I have a Question that I already posted on throwers.org, but because that topic is import and controversial I wanted to hear a second opinion.
Asking this question a coach who sounded to be very skilled said that in discus and shot there is no right leg extension in the power position to the release but only a turning of the right with a weight transfer onto the block leg.
He said that any extension would be not good and no world class thrower would do this, sometimes it would look like an extension but the lifting of the body would only come from the weight transfer to the block leg.
Contrary to this I heard different opinions. Some german books say for discus that the right leg does extend but only after the turn is nearly completed.
For shot I have also read in an old GDR book ehich said for shot that you should first extend the right and then rotate.
So there are different opinions on this topic. I think if you only rotate but not extend the right you waste power but I don't have so much knowledge, so what do you think on this topic?
Thanks for your replies
published at Aug 2nd 2007 2:48am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from toestani
I believe non of those 22m men are/has been clean. It is so easy to use. There has been and always will be drugs that are not shown in tests.
One of those man has said that it is impossible to throw over 21m without drugs.
And same goes with all the others sports. For example no one has run 100m under 10sec clean.
Wake up people and see the truth. There is and has always been drugs inwolved in sports. Idea of clean sports has died long time ago.
published at Aug 2nd 2007 3:07am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
1) Standing and full throws are related directly of course.And the percentages you talk about are probably true if you perform a standing throw emulating the excact same positions you perform the end of the full throw.
But this is a utopia,it never happens.
No matter how great the technique is,you have much more control,you can go even lower,can stay even more closed and keep track of what every bodypart does with the standing throw.
I don't care who says it,in a stand you can touch the ground with the left elbow and your right knee on your stomach and these positions will never be achievable in a full throw.
2)I never said Eastern Europe athletes were clean.I said it was a level playing field and that they had found a way to better exploit the advantages of doping.
Whenever a major life change happens,never underestimate the fact that athletes are humans too.
If your country is falling apart,many of your loved ones are going to other countries,your coach,doctor are leaving you ,the training camps exist no more etc,then it's impossible for your performance not to go down.
Even if all things are perfect,it's not easy for someone that has thrown 76 m in the discus to watch herself throw 60.Even if this athlete is physically capable of 68,then to this 8m drop another 8m will add due to psychological reasons no matter how tough this person is.
3)Sorry,but Oldfield had weightroom numbers that were less than those you describe about Neimke,Kumbernuss not to mention much stronger females like Fibingerova or Slupianek and had a 20m+ standing throw.Sarul was even weaker and Carter right there too.I don't think Matson was stronger than Neimke either but all of them have thrown 71 ft.
4) Both 21m stands and 22m glides vanished because there are not as gifted athletes anymore.It was only a decade in the history of the sport these athletes existed and pushed each other.What happens during a decade is NOT the beginning and end of a sport.IF we see as talented athletes gliding again,we'll see both.
Bilonog and Mikhnevich have come close though but Gunthor and Timmermann they're not.Regardless,they have won an Olympic gold and a World Championship.
5)Of course strength numbers in exercises showing strength and explosiveness have to do with throwing far.But perhaps,in the weightroom there are other,just as strong if not even stronger athletes unable to throw 17m.This means that you first have to have technique.
You are talking about athletes with superb technique,that today,after 30 or 20 years are used as technique models.How many coaches use your wife as a technical model ?
You have to understand that there's an hierarchy of needs for each and every athlete and what was needed for Kumbernuss or Timmermann to go even further was strength.
This doesn't mean that every other athlete has the same needs.Your wife needed a better technique.A lower trunk position during the start,glide and final position,a more closed left shoulder and a better block.
These things Timmermann's coach had solved when Timmermann was 18 and all he had to do was to make him stronger.
6)I'll agree on that !
Drugs or not,i wish you and Mr Taylor the best in your quest.
I do believe though that self pitty about not being born 20 years earlier or in another country will not help,just as more strength won't help you either.
Not more than making your athlete learn a more fluent,less hesitant transition from left to right in the mibble of the ring and a decent reverse ,that is...
In order to become better you have to see your real weaknesses and not the ones you want to believe you have (or the ones you can blame others for).This only will let you correct them.When you ask yourself the wrong questions you'll get the wrong answers.
It may do your ego a bit of a damage but it'll help you in the long run.
About the cadaveric GH:
No matter the availability to normal patients,to scientists ,to hospitals etc,you have to remember that athletes are a country's way to easy fame and glory.
I vividly remember a former Soviet coach saying that a good athlete is worth 10 ambassadors.
Now,do you still believe top athletes have at their disposal what "normal" people and patients have ?
They had what they needed when they needed it no questions asked.Coaches are treated like generals ,what they need they get.
Ethically,there's not much difference.
But in performance there's a huge difference.
"Do you think a man can throw 70ft with no doping, how about a woman?"
No way and no way !!!
Not even 68.
published at Aug 2nd 2007 3:47am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Smith
This is the danger that limits the mind. This is why i take the time to post. At one time I also thought that 70 feet was impossible to be done clean. But 20 years of training athletes clean and learning how to do what is important and how to recover i can tell you this about the shot. 22 meters has been done clean with the advancements of the rotational technique from the past 30 years, and the advancements in power development without the aid of drugs.
It has been done. I even see the possibly of 75+.
published at Aug 2nd 2007 3:48am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from John Dagata
July 30, 2007
Dear Athletes, Coaches, Professional Staff, Family and Friends,
It gives me great sadness to inform you that I will be leaving UC Santa Barbara and accepting a position at Iowa State University. This decision was very difficult for me on many levels, especially due to the relationships and friendships that I have formed with all of you during my time here at UCSB. I realize that this news will affect many people in many ways, but encourage everyone to take something positive from this as I embark on a new and exciting journey. I'm very excited for this new opportunity and challenge, and how I will grow as a person in this endeavor.
To all of my athletes, I'm so proud to be a part of what we accomplished. You will always be a part of my family. Always know that I respected you for who you are and who you will become. I will do anything to support you in your future endeavors, and will follow your progress with great pride. With every record we broke and loss we encountered this journey was the happiest time of my life! Every person in my program gave everything they could to make us who we are today. I take full responsibility for the decisions made during my time at UCSB. In my mind you were the greatest athletes in the world, because you did everything you could to be your best. Make no mistake, the training environment and dedication we all created and maintained will live forever. Only you will really understand where we came from and where we are today! I hope this experience stays with you throughout the rest of your life and realize you were not just being trained for Track & Field, but more importantly life. I want you to know I did the best job I could and respected the honor of coaching you very seriously. You have all push the limits of your spirit and found the most important question of life, your true potential. I will miss you all very much; for now you are the example!
To my coaching staff, you are the greatest group I have ever been a part of. Bruce Kennedy, Gabe Mann, & Brandon Montes created an environment that defined our character. What we accomplished in a very short period of time is transcendent in our success. Your time and sacrifice will always be special to me and I Thank You. When I came to UCSB I had a vision of whom and what we could become. Over the past six years you have changed the way we train, think, and perform. Thanks for always being there, you have given me a career and I could not have done it without you!
To my advisors, teachers and support staff, over the last six years you have always taken the time to answer my questions and help my team accomplish so much. To Glenn McAtee & Don Strametz for believing in me and giving me an opportunity in College Track & Field! Dan Pfaff, all of the emails, phone calls and tireless nights finding our path will always be special in my heart. My friend and teammate Nick Garcia, thank you for showing my team the meaning of heart and devotion, a powerful combination. Teaching me that coaching is more then science and statistics, Dan Lange taught me the power of silence and inner happiness. My first throws coach & mentor Rick Hernandez and his family, your commitment to our team retreats and ability to transform personal struggle into real achievement will always be the cornerstone of this program. For the love, patience
published at Aug 2nd 2007 4:00am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from w8coach
I think that I am suspect of any comments in which implicatiosn are made against a thrower or an era. The testing system is not a perfect one and the bad guys will always be one step ahead. It has been that way forever and toxicology hasn't changed enough to insure that ANYONE is clean. I've been involved in the sport as an athlete and a coach for over thirty years and I've seen a lot in the way of harmful topics and conversation aide in the ruin of the sport. Why not focus on the issues that really count and not the negatives that all sports are battling? In my time I've know shot putters that have thrown 20.70 with 300 lb bench press and 21.70 + with 418 bench presses. If you can see it, the potential of great technique has never been realized.
published at Aug 2nd 2007 4:04am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from dominik
No one Produces hgh or other hormones from cadavers anymore. It can be easily produced genetically which is done since the mid 80s.
It is very easy to do this I'm becoming a biologist and I could easily do this you just put the human gene into a bacterium and let it produce the hormon(OK it is not that easy but this is the principle). This is especially easy with hgh which is only a 191 Aminoacid peptide.
I think that the Americans and Russians had acces to synthetic hgh in the late 80s and for the Soviets it would be no problem to get it on other ways.
published at Aug 2nd 2007 4:08am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from LetItRip
Listen you can speak to 10 great throwers, and get 5 varied opinions.
i realized that last year when i spent some time with Mac Wilkins.. As great as a person as he is, and hes just hilarious, i found myself shocked!! that i was wanting to think of different things than what he was saying.. theres no questioning his results of course, but as a coach, i realized that it didnt necessarily translate into my agreeing with technical or functional ways of teaching my own kids.. anyway..
i think it depends on coaching style, athletes athletiscm and size, etc. Some coaches coach a certain way and have succes for years, some other different. I think its important to look at the athlete, and what would work best for his/her size,strength,etc..
give me one of the 6-8 basketball kids, and yes , maybe i will teach him to throw non-reverse, ala riedel..
i personally teach a cranking right which lifts :-)..
see the thing here is progression.
I cant teach an athlete this untill they understand and are able to achieve a solid block. Once they do, i then want them to think of crank lifting into a solid block while releasing.. of course timing and rhythm is everything..
but to answer your original question, either were going NO reverse, which were over cranking the right into a solid block, or were reversing, which were crank-lifting into a solid block.
hope it makes sense..
published at Aug 2nd 2007 4:17am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from stone
That is a ridiculous generalization and I take offense to it. Not only as a clean athlete, but also for all other athletes, past, present and future. Who are you to say what is possible and what is not possible as a clean athlete? Are you telling me that you have done extensive physical studies on athletes? If this is just what you "believe", then realize that there is a strong certainty that you are wrong. There will always be gifted athletes, as we have already described in the last few days. Men are NOT created equal. You cannot hold your self to their standards of athleticism or training methods. To hold someone to your own personal limitations or your own no-scientific thoughts about what you "think" is humanly possible is irresponsible and foolish. People who take drugs, whatever let them do it, that
published at Aug 2nd 2007 4:18am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from andy
It is very apparent that Fazekas made no attempt to ensure his system was clean for Olympics, his method of cheating (presumably) involved outright manipulation of the testing procedure.
HE IS NO DIFFERENT than the athlete who was 100% undetectable at the Olympic games, but the previous year or 6 months prior used banned substances during an olympic preparation period or a period where volume was extraordinarily high.
The purpose of the two is the same. To ensure a negative test.
Performance wise, like you said, there is big difference.
So how many atheltes do you believe that at the very least at 1 time or another had something in their body that would have triggered a positive result?
Now suppose anti-doping control showed up at that moment. Tough luck.
Is the athlete who took substances to achieve a 21m result from a previous 20m result a dirty 21m thrower or a clean 20m thrower?
published at Aug 2nd 2007 4:19am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Viking
"So how many atheltes do you believe that at the very least at 1 time or another had something in their body that would have triggered a positive result? "
If we take into account the idiotic IOC list that lists Vicks as a banned drug but fails to ensure a gene doping and GH positive,today's athletes have to narrow down the drugs they take for non-athletic reasons too...probably 90% of the normal sedentary people out there would test positive for either asthma drugs,hormones,sedatives,stimulants,contraceptives ,etc...
"Is the athlete who took substances to achieve a 21m result from a previous 20m result a dirty 21m thrower or a clean 20m thrower?"
---I'll just say he's the typical shotputter (that finishes out of the medals that is).
published at Aug 2nd 2007 6:17am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/
Quote from Norm Zylstra
Jake Dunkleberger (Auburn) wins the 2007 NCAA hammer title .... Andrew Dunkleberger (Middle School of Whitefield Academy) wins the 2007 Junior Olympics intermediate boys' hammer title.
Some nice throwing from a couple Georgia brothers. Who are some other successful sibling throwers?
published at Aug 2nd 2007 6:43am on http://www.effortlessthrow.org/