Experience is Underrated
Being a thrower who slowly found his way to some decent performances, I feel that I am qualified to elaborate on several issues that may hold USA and other discus throwers back from medalist caliber standards. John Smith touched on a section of these issues in How the USA Adapted……. Coach Smith hits the nail on the head with this one, but there are many other issues that cause problems. One of the primary issues in today’s climate is EXPERIENCE or lack thereof.
It was a warm summer night in Tucson…….. This is no romance novel luckily! I was having dinner with Mac Wilkins, a mentor and one of the greatest throwers in history. Mac talked with me about several topics, and one was the experience that he was able to gain in Europe as a post collegiate, in his early twenties prior to the Montreal Olympics (1976). He explained how he used a pay phone, called meet directors and worked his way into some competitions. I don’t want to misquote Mac, but I’m sure that he told me during this time that his personal best entering Euro comps was 63 or so meters and he was able to throw 64m before he was scheduled to go back home. Ricky Bruch at the time saw a great opportunity and invited Mac to a series of comps versus him for cash while allowing him a place to stay. Essentially Mac told me that he stayed in Europe for the summer competing and training near many of the world’s greatest throwers.
Fast forward to the climate when I finished college, I had a personal best at 22 years of age which was 62.91meters. By the age of 24 I had improved that distance to 67.86m under some nice windy conditions, and the furthest I got from my home here in Lubbock for competition was Salinas, California. Wait! Wait! Here come the folks that think throwing in the wind is cheating. You may find this astonishing but all of the USA’s greatest medalists threw under windy conditions, they also threw pretty well in the stadiums. I will leave this to another article but for now you can see how this ties into experience.
The first run in that I had with a real elite level thrower was in 2000 when Virgilijus Alekna was in Dallas, Texas for a training camp. I nearly shat myself as a 18 year old watching “The Machine” throw nearly 67m in a tailwind along with Alexander Tammert and Jason Tunks pushing elite distances in late March. My next encounter with at medalist caliber competitor was Gerd Kanter in 2008 at Salinas, California. Gerd launched the discus to 71,88m and made by seasonal best of 65m look like child’s play. That day it started to dawn on me that I was now almost 27 years old and had never competed outside the of USA. Looking back on the history of places like Salinas, you see lots of long throws (great conditions of course). The thing that many people don’t pay much attention to is who was throwing there. In the prime of the USA’s greatest discus success many of the world’s top medalists were flocking to the California coast to throw in competitions like Modesto, Salinas, and San Jose etc. It wasn’t just a few lame Americans and Gerd Kanter, there was literally a world class meet/ a competition that could easily decide championship medals if need be.
The experiences of great throwers of yesteryear came in a totally different climate. The world records were still progressing, there was a plethora of A, B and C level comps throughout Europe that were more accessible to the Mid-range Domestic Pro. If you couldn’t get in these meets, you could insure at decent level of experience just by competing in the spring and early summer on the west coast. Gerd Kanter and Alekna training in the USA were blessings to me. I was able to briefly experience a glimpse of greatness. For today’s developing athletes this has virtually gone away. We still have high level throwers coming to the USA but mostly for training camp, usage of our Olympic training center, and a few comps. In the past, it was possible to see Imrich Bugar, Luis Delis, Mac Wilkins, John Powell all square off in a battle. Today you will not see Piotr Malachowski, Robert Harting, and Ehsan Hadadi battling it out in America except for a single Diamond League event which the winnings are $10,000. Watching the 1999 Prefontaine Discus Competition, you see that even this level of experience for the American thrower has drastically changed. In 2013 the only American thrower who was allowed in the competition was Lance Brooks. Lance is also the 2 time USA Champion, and made the qualification to Moscow. What was also disturbing about the USA men’s discus in 2013, is the fact that not one single American thrower got into ANY competitions in Europe, with exception to Lance Brooks’ qualifying round in Moscow.
I lacked international experience until I was 29 years old. I can tell you that this is a huge problem for us and is growing bigger with the way our sport is changing. It is not only a problem for Americans but many other developing athletes who are not from Europe or reside there and cannot throw 67m+ distances. In our best throwing discipline by far, the shot-put, we have developed a high standard in America for rotational throws and is supported by the array of experience which you can get by competing indoor and outdoor. The prodigious post collegiate shot-putter has more than twice the competing experience as discus thrower, and has likely competed at the USA championships indoors and out several times over. Looking at the NCAA Div 1 results, we can see that throwing around 20m in the USA is for “kids” or better yet, students. Our expertise feeds teh cycle, and even if throwers in the shot don’t get to Europe quickly after college, there are 5 good months of competition possible without crossing an ocean. There are few if any 22-23 year old discus throwers who are ready to medal regardless of experience. I feel that this fact makes the transition for the prodigous american collegiate shotputter (21m) to more quickly make a transition to sponsorship, and international competition. the 62-64m prodigious discus thrower is in no mans land.
I have competed 10 times so far outside the USA during my career. This includes the Olympic Games, World Championships, World Cup, and Pan American Games. In 2011 I fouled a 65m+ throw in the World Championships final, and I knew at that moment that the difference between finishing top five wasn’t just technique, specific strength, or coaching but my lack of experience in the fight. How I made it onto the international scene was by throwing really well in big winds, and then backing it up in many other less windy domestic competitions. I have proposed this to younger discus throwers and they think that I’m crazy… They all want to peak at the USA Championships and make a team. I would take 5-7 diamond league comps over 1 world championship qualifier in today’s climate. We need the experience! I am planning to propose to the USATF that we need to invest almost all our funding in development of international/ level appropraite experience. This specifically applies to the long throws. We can see from USA hammer record holder, Amanda Bingson, that she is extremely talented and well coached but also hoping to gain more experience. Post collegiate talent is all over the place in the USA, but mainly staying close to home and competing locally, 5-7 meets per year.
Jason E. Young
Olympain & Author of Discus Dynamics
Sorry, but problem number one with US discus is talent, not experience or lack of it.
If the best US has to offer are squatty overachievers like the Romes and Waltzs, i.e. the antithesis of the modern discus thrower, simply put there will be no hope at the top, as it is happening since longtime for US.
Where the SIm Iness, Rink Babka, Ken Stadel body-type have gone ?
Playing tight end or left tackle, of course.
Mac Wilkins knows it (T&FN March 2014) , hopefully he will find some decent specimen for Chula Vista.
Mauro: What you speak about here is why we as people have a hard time to change and to grow. The issue of size and body type can be a valid one but only in a world where there are absolutes. Here are several reasons why your comments are not up to standard.
1. I don’t believe in the word “overachievers”………. what does it mean?
2. Modern Discus throwers come in a variety of sizes and shapes. Take into account some of the best in recent years Piotr Malachowski or Hadadi. They are both smaller than Jarred Rome. They both have medals..Hmmm
3. The examples of throwers you gave are nonsensical at best.
– Ines was champion in 1952.. Who knows if his body type could compete on today’s world stage. Distances damn sure didn’t compare…… regardless, doesn’t matter, will never know
-Babka was a big athletic thrower but not only had the sport not advanced very far then but he wasn’t even the best of his day… “A Squatty Overachiever” (your words) named Oerter was winning all those gold.
– Ken Stadel was a phenomenal athlete and physical specimen with a best of 69.26 but wait… did he get any medals??? At that time the guys who were getting there (Powell, Wilkins) where smaller and less NFL like than he. Even a very “Squatty Overachiever” (in your words again) Art Burns was a good thrower or how about silvester?
3. In the United States there are 300million+ people. I know, I have lived here a while, I’m sure that ALL of the good body types (whatever that means) are not playing tight end in the NFL lol. There aren’t that many teams! This is an overgeneralization.. I was a very good football player and am short for a discus thrower but with very long arms. I chose to throw discus. Guys like Ryan Crouser, Mason Finley chose to throw. We have had many very good specimens come through and they still haven’t turned out as medalists. Today,Lance Brooks is a very good specimen, Casey Malone is 6’9″. We have had many big men… all big men don’t play in the NFL. I worked in NCAA basketball for a long time and can tell you that most Big athletes in basketball that are over 2m do not posses high level athleticism as a big thrower (power, weight, strength). Maybe lebron James but that’s why there is only one of him.. NFL, NBA, etc. existed in 1960’s 1970’s 1980’s 1990’s. Of course we can look there and see some good athletes with potential to throw far but then why is Russia not getting discus medals?? NFL NBA water polo? Why is Netherlands not always winning discus medals?? NFL NBA?? Why is Mario Pestano not winning discus medals every event??Each country has their own set of problems. As a “SQUATTY OVERACHIEVER” myself (your words again), what could some of us do with a full sponsorship for 4 years, no job besides athletics, medical care paid for, full time physio therapist, full international competition schedule, Training camps, drugs…………………………….???????? These issues are not just for American but all athletes. I can speak for America because I represent it.
4. The area I grew up in has 6million people, the state 26million people. There are sooo many big powerful athletic types that you can come and coach from my neighborhood if you like. None of them play NFL. Some are table waiters, bus drivers, criminals, drug dealers..For some reason I guess I overachieved and was able to keep that up until the elite level. PLEASE COME AND SHOW THEM SO AMERICA CAN WIN MEDALS IN DISCUS. Since I started throwing at age 16, I have never competed once and been the tallest thrower. Many times though I was one of the better ones regardless of level.
5. The last major championship medalist for USA was Anthony Washington. He was SHORT, NOT VERY LONG ARM SPAN, lighter weight. Must have been a hell of an OVERACHIEVER (in your words) to throw 69m in the stadium in Seville. If we could have one of our best NFL bodies in his position, that throw would have been 79m instead!! lol
6. Shot-put has flourished in the USA despite “MANY TALENTED” athletes being NFL….Hmmmmm. I don’t buy it completely. I maybe could buy it if the biggest tallest athlete always represented the medals but this is not the case. How did Christian Cantwell escape NFL, or another “Squatty Overachiever” (your words) adam neslon who was also a very good football player escape it? Maybe we should just start looking at bodies (measure height, weight,armspan) vs. doing the competitions. It would be easier, take less training time, need less officals, and make the competitions go by really fast! We could compete everday and teh winners would always be the same!!
7. Also how did Simeon, Bucci, Martino throw far? I assume by your name you are Italian. If not, please disregard this question.
“I’m not taking some 210 high schooler who’s 6-1 or 6-2 and thinking that I can go up and challenge Robert Hartig who’s 6-7”
(Mac Wilkins, T&FN March 2014, page 15)
Absolutes ? well, not, but let’s try to be precise:
1) Overachier ? somebody with lesser tools to begin with.
2) . . . . . . .Smaller but surely more talented.
Obviously both in Germany and Poland they know better.
After Hartig: Wierig 6-7, Hartig C. 6-7, Munch 6-9, Jasinski 6-6
After Malachowski : Urbanek 6-7, Czajkowski 6-6
All the above better than the current best from the US, the man with
the large head.
3) Do not dire to name Al Oerter a squatty overachiever.
He simply had what needed to be one of the best athletes and best
competitors ever in sports, beginning with the HS record improved by
exactly 5 yards (the talent, baby).
Sim Iness . . . Al Blozis (a NFL Hall of Fame tackle, too) . . . US discus
only can drool and dream about them, today.
3) (Again)
Football is not played just in the NFL, of course.
Crouser is throwing the shot instead . . . . (why ?).
Finley just a wide body . . . .
Malone the lenght but not the talent, compared to the world cream . .
Russia is in better shape than the US, and even if it is Russia, this is
just ridicolous (compared to US potential).
4) Sorry, nothing I can do to help America, just hoping Multiple Mac can
do something. Yes, things are so miserable that in the long jump there
was a second Alamo last year, 177 years later, only the decrepit
Dwight Phillips trying to keep the fort in place of Davy Crockett.
And the “Deguello” is still playing, in the long jump as in the discus,
played by mexicans and . . jamaicans (nice, slender specimen that
Fedrick Dacres, experience or not . . .).
5) He just had the talent, I guess. Lenght AND talent are the key. And be
serius, please.
6) Yes in the shot those spinners are still functional . . as long as you do
not ask them to win the olympics, or the outdoor worlds, I suspect
they do not have truly football temperament and grit, aside of Nelson,
well undersized NFL wise, anyway.
7) Simeon was not so gifted, an . . . overachever with great intelligence,
Martino and Bucci, while discretly pumped up, nothing special.
Adolfo Consolini 5-11,5 with 6-7 wingspan was special of course,
arguably the best italian track and field athlete ever. He had the best
of the small-wind blowed Fortune Gordien in London but had to
surrender to the great oakie (Sim Iness) in Helsinki.
And yes, sono italiano.
CONCLUSION
Should the Powell, Burns, Rome, Young (nothing personal) knock at the
Chula Vista door ?
I would not open.
Mauro. you have made no legitimate points here. You know that German prefer to have taller athletes in junior elite selection system but there are other reasons why they are consistenly succesful. The Germans have been more succesful in discus than everyone. Other countries are bringing in the types and are nto getting medals? You mention Malone having length but not talent. Casey is very talented. Top class junior, Top class senior. I remember him throwing 66.06m in world championship 5th. He is also beating some atheltes who are doping…..This is not talent? He also works a full time job as a coach, no sponsor, and trains after working, coaching, paperwork, travel with his team. He also does not have training camps, and limited travel due to work……. In one sentence you are judging talent by body and the other you are saying that the same guy is not talented enough. This invisible talent you speak about hmmm. You are saying Munch, Harting etc can play NFL? Maybe, maybe not. You named several German throwers and Polish but most of them dont have medals, not yet, maybe never, most dont have big distance in stadium either. I agree that a big very good athlete may posses and advantage but it is not just the case for the advantage. There are other advantages that you overlook. I was good level university age thrower. I trained alone, worked full time job (4:30-5:30am start time) , zero sponsorship until 29 years old, but threw well even at a earlier age. I was never of interest by chula vista, and many others were not either. So to overachieve as I did, you would think that if I go to train this way I can get closer to medal. In 2010 bmy best season, I was healthy and had better technique… After I threw my Best I went to work the track meet, back to normal.. We must establish in the USA which Criteria you will develop the athelte from. If you just go by body type, who will do the throwing??????????? according to you, FInely is just wide body? have you ever seen him compete live in person? Crouser is an excellent athelte, but as I have stated beore, USA colelge athletes have a large proportion of work on their plates. Shot put is 1st season, also some weight throw, hammer throw. and discus all together. It would be great to find all the best atheltes from every sport and make them discus thrower but this is not the case. I see many athletes that are from europe, that train full time, and do not get close to medals ever…In my case as you stated, you wouldnt open the chula vista door.. let us see if Harting was working 50-60hours per week and attempting to throw for medals, how about Kanter? Im sure that Weirig has sponsorship for a whole olympic cycle. Take those advantages away and you get what????????? Even Washington worked full time and beat the best. I am sure that you have never seen talent such as we posses here inthe USA and maybe never will. I am absolutely sure that regardless of finding “THIS BODY” “THIS MYSTERIOUS TALENT” you speak about, that we can do much better overall. Germany is the pinnacle of elite discus throwing Mauro. Our development system is far from it, almost every system is far from it but producing some good throwers. From you statements, I feel that we should just give up discus throwing as an event. We do not have a chance, Becasue will not get the present day AL Blozis to the circle. My goal is to make what we have better, not to dream of having the perfect athlete. I am about improvment, not dreaming……. I am tired of this conversation… if chula vista door came knocking for a coach? i would not open for Mauro (nothing personal) ;) This has been a good conversation but I am not coming back. I have been in this fight and strongly disagree to the completeness of your angle.
BTW I have 6’10 3/4″ wingspan at 6’1″ height…
It might be easier for everyone to have the discussion in our social board:
http://social.throwholics.com/index.php/Thread/4203-Experience-is-Underrated/
I am 6’1″1/2 and my arm span is 6’3″ I just turned 17 so I think I have a little more growing to do but my question is do you think it is impossible to hit around 62-63 meters with a 2k with my body type?